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Henry Kissinger on the 1979 Sino-Vietnam War.

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  • #16
    And please, don't use that "local defence forces/barefoot militia" thing with us. Those formations were filled with combat veterans from the Saigon-Hanoi Wars. They were regforce in everyway but name.

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    • #17
      Hardly. The AARs defined well established positions at the platoon and company level requiring superior weaponry to dislodge. These positions were well dug in and withstood army level indirect fire and required special weapons platoons to dislodge.
      I don't get it. The fact that they had their defense lines in place and the fact whether they knew in advance about the attack are totally different. Vietnam has fought China for thousands years, of course their border would look much different from let say the US-Canada border.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
        And please, don't use that "local defence forces/barefoot militia" thing with us. Those formations were filled with combat veterans from the Saigon-Hanoi Wars. They were regforce in everyway but name.
        lol, then name some of them?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by drhuy View Post
          I don't get it. The fact that they had their defense lines in place and the fact whether they knew in advance about the attack are totally different. Vietnam has fought China for thousands years, of course their border would look much different from let say the US-Canada border.
          You've had border clashes since 1978. You've just conquered Cambodia. The Chinese mobilized eight group armies. The Chinese warned Moscow not to get involved. And you're telling me that the strategic thinkers who won the Saigon-Hanoi Wars had no clue the Chinese were coming?

          Originally posted by drhuy View Post
          lol, then name some of them?
          My friend Andy did that

          Sino-Vietnam war 1979 orbat

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          • #20
            You've had border clashes since 1978. You've just conquered Cambodia. The Chinese mobilized eight group armies. The Chinese warned Moscow not to get involved. And you're telling me that the strategic thinkers who won the Saigon-Hanoi Wars had no clue the Chinese were coming?
            Doesn't matter. Like I said, Vietnam has fought China for thousands of years. China always is their biggest threat, every Vietnamese know that, don't need a strategist to figure that out. But we are not talking at institutional and strategic levels, arent we? You said Vietnam knew in advance about the attack and were waiting for the Chinese, didnt you? No, you're plain wrong.

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            • #21
              About the orbat,you should know that 3 out of 4 main Vietnamese Armies were still at Cambodia at the time the attack started. The only one left (1st Army) was kept around the Red River delta and remained there for the rest of the war. The 2nd Army later was moved north but never took part in any action.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by drhuy View Post
                Doesn't matter. Like I said, Vietnam has fought China for thousands of years. China always is their biggest threat, every Vietnamese know that, don't need a strategist to figure that out. But we are not talking at institutional and strategic levels, arent we? You said Vietnam knew in advance about the attack and were waiting for the Chinese, didnt you? No, you're plain wrong.
                You mean to tell me that your strategic thinkers did not noticed the mobilization of 300,000 men (going both north and south)? What kind of idiots were they? That is warning plain and simple. There was plenty of warning and if you believe your strategic thinkers didn't noticed, then, they should have been fired.

                Tell me, does the Vietnamese normally issued ammunition to troops during peacetime?

                Originally posted by drhuy View Post
                About the orbat,you should know that 3 out of 4 main Vietnamese Armies were still at Cambodia at the time the attack started. The only one left (1st Army) was kept around the Red River delta and remained there for the rest of the war. The 2nd Army later was moved north but never took part in any action.
                Does it changed the fact that your forces were combat veterans?
                Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 17 Jun 11,, 14:08.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                  You mean to tell me that your strategic thinkers did not noticed the mobilization of 300,000 men (going both north and south)? What kind of idiots were they? That is warning plain and simple. There was plenty of warning and if you believe your strategic thinkers didn't noticed, then, they should have been fired.

                  Tell me, does the Vietnamese normally issued ammunition to troops during peacetime?

                  Does it changed the fact that your forces were combat veterans?
                  which thinkers? what mobilization? which peace time?

                  Of course a part of Vietnamese army were combat veteran at that time. But like I said, most of them were still in Cambodia. 4 main Vietnamese Armies NEVER (N-E-V-E-R) took part in any action. Vietnam could never have enough resources, even with help from USSR, to maintain 2 huge conventional forces in 2 fronts. Most units stationed in the northern border at that time were not fully combat effective. Later in the war, the Russian had to help establish an airborne bridge to move forces from Cambodia. Sound like a well-prepared plan?

                  Again, and this time you'd better listen carefully: Vietnamese leaders were caught completely surprised by the TIME and SCALE of the attack. Anything other than that is just pure SPECULATION.
                  Last edited by drhuy; 18 Jun 11,, 05:46.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by drhuy View Post
                    which thinkers? what mobilization? which peace time?

                    Of course a part of Vietnamese army were combat veteran at that time. But like I said, most of them were still in Cambodia. 4 main Vietnamese Armies NEVER (N-E-V-E-R) took part in any action. Vietnam could never have enough resources, even with help from USSR, to maintain 2 huge conventional forces in 2 fronts. Most units stationed in the northern border at that time were not fully combat effective. Later in the war, the Russian had to help establish an airborne bridge to move forces from Cambodia. Sound like a well-prepared plan?

                    Again, and this time you'd better listen carefully: Vietnamese leaders were caught completely surprised by the TIME and SCALE of the attack. Anything other than that is just pure SPECULATION.
                    And for the last time, you freaking lazy dumb ass! Your freaking Generals COULD NOT HAVE MISSED EIGHT CHINESE GROUP ARMIES BEING READIED FOR WAR. THIS IS NOT SPECULATION. THIS IS SIMPLE INTEL.

                    No, VIETNAM WAS NOT CAUGHT BY SURPRISED BY THE TIME AND SCALE. EIGHT CHINESE ARMIES WERE MOBILIZED. And you keep telling me that your Generals had absolutely no clue what that means, especially the same Generals who made similar mobilizations attacking south.

                    So, right now, you are trying to tell me that ~90,000 men just happened to be issued ammunition. Got to their assignments overnight. Had enough food and water prepared to last days. Yeah, tell that to someone else who had absolutely no clue about mobilization. Even if these were your secondary troops, ESPECIALLY IF THESE ARE YOUR SECONDARY TROOPS, you want to tell me that they had over 10,000 rounds of ammunition, marched overnight, and were issued proper orders when the Chinese attack.

                    I will give you that Hanoi had absolutely no clue about Chinese objectives but what the hell would they have thought 300,000 Chinese troops being mobilized meant? For a picnic?

                    Tell that to someone else who knows nothing about mobilization.

                    This is ain't speculation. This is getting men from beds from home to their front lines.
                    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 18 Jun 11,, 08:10.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                      And for the last time, you freaking lazy dumb ass! Your freaking Generals COULD NOT HAVE MISSED EIGHT CHINESE GROUP ARMIES BEING READIED FOR WAR. THIS IS NOT SPECULATION. THIS IS SIMPLE INTEL.

                      No, VIETNAM WAS NOT CAUGHT BY SURPRISED BY THE TIME AND SCALE. EIGHT CHINESE ARMIES WERE MOBILIZED. And you keep telling me that your Generals had absolutely no clue what that means, especially the same Generals who made similar mobilizations attacking south.

                      So, right now, you are trying to tell me that ~90,000 men just happened to be issued ammunition. Got to their assignments overnight. Had enough food and water prepared to last days. Yeah, tell that to someone else who had absolutely no clue about mobilization. Even if these were your secondary troops, ESPECIALLY IF THESE ARE YOUR SECONDARY TROOPS, you want to tell me that they had over 10,000 rounds of ammunition, marched overnight, and were issued proper orders when the Chinese attack.

                      I will give you that Hanoi had absolutely no clue about Chinese objectives but what the hell would they have thought 300,000 Chinese troops being mobilized meant? For a picnic?

                      Tell that to someone else who knows nothing about mobilization.

                      This is ain't speculation. This is getting men from beds from home to their front lines.
                      Guess what? We're gonna discuss this in a mature and civilized way. I'm tired of your SPECULATION. Give me some FACT unless you dont want me to take you seriously.

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                      • #26
                        drhuy
                        it is the other way around for those who follows this thread.
                        “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

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                        • #27
                          Damn chew-toy and troll gods got better, now they have sleepers, too.
                          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by drhuy View Post
                            Guess what? We're gonna discuss this in a mature and civilized way. I'm tired of your SPECULATION. Give me some FACT unless you dont want me to take you seriously.
                            Fine. Let's do this the mature way. The Canadian SOP to get readied reserved brigade, ie a 1000 man militia, to a war footing is 30 days.

                            What is the Vietnamese standard for 90,000 men?

                            Whom is authorized in the Vietnamese militia during peacetime, ie not expecting a Chinese attack at all, is allowed to keep over 10,000 rounds of ammunition in their homes? IE, the ammunition expenditures encountered by the Chinese at various locations?
                            Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 22 Jun 11,, 05:54.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by drhuy View Post
                              Guess what? We're gonna discuss this in a mature and civilized way. I'm tired of your SPECULATION. Give me some FACT unless you dont want me to take you seriously.
                              I'm really enjoying reading what you have to say. It's like a trainwreck only funny.

                              OOE is giving you facts over and over. He's also got years of experience in the Canadian military and correct me if I'm wrong Col. but isn't an engineers job very closely related to the construction of defense points? ;p
                              Originally posted by GVChamp
                              College students are very, very, very dumb. But that's what you get when the government subsidizes children to sit in the middle of a corn field to drink alcohol and fuck.

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                              • #30
                                Obstacles but the Bde Col decides the axis of approach and we decide the defence points.

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