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Thread: Pakistan likely to use Nuclear weapons on India "a few days" into war: US ambassador

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by vsdoc View Post
    India has never been an existential threat to Pakistan, nor it is argued has she ever had the muscle to be one
    Oh Really? Considering the fact that majority of your Army is parked at Pakistan's Eastern Borders; your entire Western Command of the IAF is solely focused against Pakistan, your Government threatening Pakistan with open war and surgical strikes. I don't know on what basis would you claim that India is not an existential threat to Pakistan, the facts on the ground speak otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by vsdoc View Post
    We have never initiated war with Pakistan, oftentimes even in the face of constant fingering from their side.
    Oh puleez, the war in 1971 was clearly initiated by India. The open support for Mukti Bahini was an open declaration of war by India against Pakistan, your country started this whole idea in South Asia of supporting proxies in other countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by vsdoc View Post
    In spite of that Pakistan went nuclear. The world should de-nuke Pakistan, just as it forced South Africa to step back.
    Pakistan went nuclear because India went nuclear. Have you forgotten the threatening statements your politicians were making against Pakistan when India exploded a nuke, the only thing that shut them up was when Pakistan went nuclear. If Pakistan having nukes is such a big hassle for India, India should have never gone nuclear. Pakistan will abandon its nuclear weapons the day India does the same, for now, the world and India can do jack sh** about Pakistan's nuclear weapons.

  2. #47
    Senior Contributor Agnostic Muslim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notorious_eagle View Post


    Oh puleez, the war in 1971 was clearly initiated by India. The open support for Mukti Bahini was an open declaration of war by India against Pakistan, your country started this whole idea in South Asia of supporting proxies in other countries.
    As well as Indian support for rebels in the State of Junagadh in 1947 (a little before the Kashmir issue started) and the eventual invasion and annexation of the State through force, despite the ruler of the State having clearly acceded to Pakistan months earlier, and Pakistan's available diplomatic communication with India clearly protesting India's position on the issue and its support for the rebels and invasion of the territory.

    And since some Indians will inevitably drag it up, the 'Prime Minister' of Junagadh had no authority to negotiate anything with India, his position was reduced to that of a local administrator after the accession, and India was clearly informed of the official Pakistani position on the issue through diplomatic cables.

    The claim of 'India has never initiated any aggressive action or invaded territory or supported terrorist proxies (Junagadh rebels, LTTE, East Pakistan terrorists and rebels)' is 'Horse Puckey', as the Colonel likes to say.
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by notorious_eagle View Post
    Oh Really? Considering the fact that majority of your Army is parked at Pakistan's Eastern Borders; your entire Western Command of the IAF is solely focused against Pakistan, your Government threatening Pakistan with open war and surgical strikes. I don't know on what basis would you claim that India is not an existential threat to Pakistan, the facts on the ground speak otherwise.
    If you don't want those armies on the border, why don't you stop supporting and abetting cross border terrorism and drop the calls for a "Free kashmir" an oxymoron if I ever heard one considering your track record in POK.

    Oh puleez, the war in 1971 was clearly initiated by India. The open support for Mukti Bahini was an open declaration of war by India against Pakistan, your country started this whole idea in South Asia of supporting proxies in other countries.
    And you conveniently left out why India openly supported Mukti Bahini and the cause belli was the unrestrained pogroms initiated by your army against hindus and moderate Muslims leading to a refugee crisis which saw millions of Bangladeshis crossing the border into India. No, your country started the war by committing crimes against humanity which forced India to act.

    Pakistan went nuclear because India went nuclear. Have you forgotten the threatening statements your politicians were making against Pakistan when India exploded a nuke, the only thing that shut them up was when Pakistan went nuclear. If Pakistan having nukes is such a big hassle for India, India should have never gone nuclear. Pakistan will abandon its nuclear weapons the day India does the same, for now, the world and India can do jack sh** about Pakistan's nuclear weapons.
    And India will abandon its nuclear weapons when China abandon its nuclear weapons. So why don't you inform your beloved "brothers" or "comrades in arms" that they should give up their nuclear weapons and return the land that they stole from India. That will be a real good start to getting India to give up the nuclear weapons.


    By the way, AM and notorious eagel, I couldn't help but notice your several last posts and judging from the likes of them, I wouldn't be amissed in thinking that you are trying to initiate flame wars that would see several members banned. Well I am not going to rise up to the bait. This will be my last post in the thread and in the other thread. I am opting out because I can see your nefarious intent behind these posts. And to all Indian posters, I suggest you do the same and ignore AM and notorious eagle otherwise this would just be another flame war.
    Last edited by Blademaster; 11 Jun 11, at 19:39.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought View Post
    Thanks. Would the Chinese know that quickly?
    Stuart Slade said when the first test set of Pakistani nukes went dud, the Chinese immediately moved two of their nukes for the second tests. Now, that is faulty intel, the forensic evidence was all Pakistani but it did indicate that the Chinese knew of the second series of tests before it happened and suggests that they knew of the 1st set of test also.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by notorious_eagle View Post
    Oh Really? Considering the fact that majority of your Army is parked at Pakistan's Eastern Borders;
    There are two things Blademaster, as a lawyer, will tell you. Never ask a question that you do not know the answer to. Never give an answer that you don't know it to be wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by notorious_eagle View Post
    your entire Western Command of the IAF is solely focused against Pakistan, your Government threatening Pakistan with open war and surgical strikes.
    Open war and surgical strikes are not synonymous with annihilation.

    Quote Originally Posted by notorious_eagle View Post
    I don't know on what basis would you claim that India is not an existential threat to Pakistan, the facts on the ground speak otherwise.
    In other words, Pakistani nukes mean crap all.

    I am not going to go through your history but I made a comment 15 years ago. China will fight India down to the last Pakistani.

    This is a reflection of Mao Tse-Tung's statement that "We will fight the Americans down to the last Vietnamese" and the result? The Vietnamese fought two wars (won the first and lost the second) against the Chinese.

    In all honesty, both India and Pakistan have absolutely no clue about China ... and Pakistan is the poorer for it ... because China is not the friend you think her to be.

  6. #51
    Senior Contributor Agnostic Muslim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blademaster View Post
    If you don't want those armies on the border, why don't you stop supporting and abetting cross border terrorism and drop the calls for a "Free kashmir" an oxymoron if I ever heard one considering your track record in POK.
    That is precisely what Pakistan has done since Musharraf decided to shift Pakistan's policy towards one of negotiating a compromise resolution to the Kashmir dispute, which led to the back channel dialog that almost resulted in a breakthrough, until the political turmoil in Pakistan in 2007-08 gave India the excuse to disengage from the negotiations.

    India's own Military officials have time and again, over the past several years, commented on the reduction in cross-LOC infiltration into IAK. The actual numbers of Indian military engagements in IAK support that position as well, as do the drastically lower incidents of cross-LOC exchanges between Indian and Pakistani troops. So I would argue that that the onus is on the Indians to take the next step - Pakistan has clearly demonstrated its intent to pursue a different course to resolve the Kashmir dispute.

    And you conveniently left out why India openly supported Mukti Bahini and the cause belli was the unrestrained pogroms initiated by your army against hindus and moderate Muslims leading to a refugee crisis which saw millions of Bangladeshis crossing the border into India. No, your country started the war by committing crimes against humanity which forced India to act.
    I refuted this 'forced by millions of refugees' argument on this very forum a few months ago. There are statements from high ranking Indian military officials from that time (Manekshaw and others) that clearly point to the Indian decision of providing covert support to East Pakistani rebels/terrorists as early as late March/early April - that timeline does not support the 'forced by millions of refugees' justification, since that was the beginning of the Army crackdown in East Pakistan. If anything, covert Indian support for rebels/terrorists at that time led to an exacerbation of the conflict, and in turn was also responsible for the refugee exodus into India. India fanned the flames of violence, and then used the same violence to justify its 'official' intervention.

    1971 was therefore clearly and incident of aggression and hostility initiated by India, not Pakistan.

    You can look up that thread by going through my posts, and continue this particular discussion there, to avoid taking this thread off topic.

    And India will abandon its nuclear weapons when China abandon its nuclear weapons. So why don't you inform your beloved "brothers" or "comrades in arms" that they should give up their nuclear weapons and return the land that they stole from India. That will be a real good start to getting India to give up the nuclear weapons.
    Why should we ask the Chinese to do anything of the sort? You take it up with them - the point is simply that Indian threats and hostility left Pakistan no choice but to pursue a nuclear weapons program.

    We don't really care if India wants to use China or the Cookie Monster as an excuse for its own nuclear weapons program - Pakistan's nuclear program is based on its own threat perceptions, and those threats are quite clearly from India.

    By the way, AM and notorious eagel, I couldn't help but notice your several last posts and judging from the likes of them, I wouldn't be amissed in thinking that you are trying to initiate flame wars that would see several members banned. Well I am not going to rise up to the bait. This will be my last post in the thread and in the other thread. I am opting out because I can see your nefarious intent behind these posts. And to all Indian posters, I suggest you do the same and ignore AM and notorious eagle otherwise this would just be another flame war.
    I fail to see what you see as 'flaming' in our posts, when all we have done is counter the arguments of 'India poses no threat' and 'India has never initiated hostilities or supported terrorists/proxies'. These arguments are completely relevant to establishing why Pakistan believes India is a threat to her.

    You can't simply expect us to roll over and not counter inaccurate arguments.

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 12 Jun 11, at 17:29.
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  7. #52
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    flaming and trolling posts will not be accepted, please behave like adults.
    Last edited by zraver; 13 Jun 11, at 02:29.
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  8. #53
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    Anyone else want to try and organize a boycott and stifle the conversation on WAB? BM wanted silence and he got it.... NEXT!

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Anyone else want to try and organize a boycott and stifle the conversation on WAB? BM wanted silence and he got it.... NEXT!
    That's unfortunate, is it a permanent or temp ban...
    Seek Save Serve Medic

  10. #55
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    That is precisely what Pakistan has done since Musharraf decided to shift Pakistan's policy towards one of negotiating a compromise resolution to the Kashmir dispute, which led to the back channel dialog that almost resulted in a breakthrough, until the political turmoil in Pakistan in 2007-08 gave India the excuse to disengage from the negotiations.
    You don't think the mumbai attacks would have served as a reason to disengage from negotiations. Thats primarily the reason negotiations haven't restarted since.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    India's own Military officials have time and again, over the past several years, commented on the reduction in cross-LOC infiltration into IAK. The actual numbers of Indian military engagements in IAK support that position as well, as do the drastically lower incidents of cross-LOC exchanges between Indian and Pakistani troops. So I would argue that that the onus is on the Indians to take the next step - Pakistan has clearly demonstrated its intent to pursue a different course to resolve the Kashmir dispute.
    mumbai again. Not going to be any movement until we resolve the outstanding issues there.

  11. #56
    Defense Professional Dreadnought's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Stuart Slade said when the first test set of Pakistani nukes went dud, the Chinese immediately moved two of their nukes for the second tests. Now, that is faulty intel, the forensic evidence was all Pakistani but it did indicate that the Chinese knew of the second series of tests before it happened and suggests that they knew of the 1st set of test also.
    Thanks OOE.
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    Is wondering that if two different countries militaries are on Pakistans borders operating against terrorists then why isint the message getting through. Must be rocket science.
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

  13. #58
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    I have said it before in another time and at another place. True peace between India and Pakistan will come when one side is no longer capable of waging war. Till then we wait. And grow richer. And stronger.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought View Post
    Is wondering that if two different countries militaries are on Pakistans borders operating against terrorists then why isint the message getting through. Must be rocket science.
    What's terrorists for Pakistan is not for India and vice versa. Once they agree who the terrorists are...
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought View Post
    Is wondering that if two different countries militaries are on Pakistans borders operating against terrorists then why isint the message getting through. Must be rocket science.
    I would suggest stop putting your eggs in the "Pakistani elitist society" basket and see how things change. Put some stock in the regular Pakistani, we come off critical but at the end of the day, its only our buy in that can change the ground realities.

    Musharraf was a uniformed dictator, the NRO sponsored Zardari a civilian dictator. Kayani has lost the appreciation of the nation as well.

    This does not mean give aid, give trade if you want to and feel some sort of gain for yourselves as well, but don't give free money, since undoubtedly you will have to deal with the same elites and they will eat your money and never follow through. The rest of us are critical about the American approach to the war, but at the same time we are critical about the extremism and pockets of society sympathetic to terrorists. You need this honest group in power. Let me also be very clear, this does not mean anyone has to butt in and help us come to power, just stop helping the elites. Pro-democratic and pro-freedom forces would take care of the rest on their own.

    Pakistan has an enormous amount of good left in it, its only slow to progress since we are battling so many fronts - The elites, the Taliban and even the Americans. The Proverbial old saying about the AAA - Allah (religious groups), America (USG meddling, Anne Patterson/RDavis like) and Army (Elites) decide the fate of Pakistan. We want the Awaam (general public) to supersede all other groups if not remove their role altogether in deciding the fate of the country.

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