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  • #61
    Thrice,actually.This one just got bigger

    International troops are the least worries there.They'll eventually go home.And when they'll do that,there won't be anything preventing Serbia imitating Russian actions in Georgia.Rightfully so,if you ask me.

    Versus,I got friends in mission there.They told of great relations with the Serbs.How that looks from the Serb side?
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Mihais View Post
      Thrice,actually.This one just got bigger

      International troops are the least worries there.They'll eventually go home.And when they'll do that,there won't be anything preventing Serbia imitating Russian actions in Georgia.Rightfully so,if you ask me.

      Versus,I got friends in mission there.They told of great relations with the Serbs.How that looks from the Serb side?
      Well, to be completely honest, I stopped paying attention to that issue after my deployment there, ended in 1999. The whole situation is hopeless from the Serbian side. If the information is correct, recent clashes at the border will end up tomorrow with Kosovo govt operation of securing the border crossing up north. Meaning sending everything they got. The blood has been spilled already and situation can escalate rapidly. Most likely the remaining Serbian population will flee from Kosovo, since Serbia doesn't have the means to protect them nor it is in a situation to do so. NATO has requested reinforcements to be deployed post haste. That is the up to date status.
      On the longer run, situation is even worse. The southern Serbia and the municipalities that are on the border with Kosovo will erupt next, since the clashes of 1999-2003 ended with stalemate. Since than that area has been virtually wild west, kind of duty free zone for drug dealing, trafficking, arms smuggling and all sorts of criminal activity.
      By my opinion, Serbia has only one choice and that is to accept reality. It can fast forward the events by granting the referendum for those municipalities and let them become part of Kosovo and than recognize the Kosovo as an independent state. Since that is what Kosovo is, regardless of how Serbs feel about it. But also it has to recognize the other part of reality and that is that the Kosovo state has territorial claims on Serbian territory and that it has plan to take those territories by force. For this part, Serbia should abandon the European Union until it secures its borders with Kosovo. The story of all Balkans joining the EU is a fairy tale and it will never happen. The course that the Serbian Army has took, with all reforms and restructuring, render it to be actually completely combat ineffective at all levels. In other words we can't do anything to counter the threat from Kosovo yet we are talking about sending our troops in overseas missions.

      The whole situation is really nuts at all levels.
      Last edited by Versus; 03 Aug 11,, 18:11.

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      • #63
        The whole problem is simple. Serbia has too many nationalists and too few patriots. I consider myself an patriot, since this is the only country I have and I care about it, because of that. That doesn't mean that I justify any action it takes or any policy it adopts. The Kosovo problem could not be solved in any other way, than in a way it was solved. Same goes for southern municipalities. And since that pattern is well known, Serbia must do decisive actions to break that pattern, it can't just turn its head and expect that it will resolve by itself. Actually it does resolve by itself but it is not for Serbia's benefit. And than, instead of learning and doing things to prevent such situations to accrue and happen, all the Serbs to is sit down and whine, drowning in self regret. That doesn't help, it didn't helped in 1941-45, 1947,1980,1989 or 1997. And it didn't helped in 1999-2003. We know what Albanians want, we know how they do it and if we want to stop them than we must do so.
        The story of multiculturalism works only if you have the culture that is able to process multiple cultures and create new values out of that mixture. Serbia doesn't have that and should abandon that policy. Especially with Albanians. I mean, that is the main reason for all hostilities here, that is why war broke out, because Serbs tried to force everyone else to fit into their cultural model and that wasn't possible. It wasn't possible since the cultural model that Serbia has is, let's be honest, horrible. It is so horrible that even Serbs don't like it. We have to work on our culture, our values and build society that people will like not hate and the first step is to be honest to each other and stop lying and pretending.

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        • #64
          Hungarians in Vojvodina and the almost a million Romanians in Timok fit quite well in whatever cultural model Serbia has.I'm not sure if the problem is so much with the Serbs as with the others.Agreed the Albanians were problematic,but it wasn't for the lack of effort on your part.Our potential problematic areas in Transylvania never became so because they understood they had to work with the system,not against it.
          However,had they received enough support we would have been in the same crap.For the sake of realism,let's not forget this wasn't only between Serbs and Albanians.
          The only pattern I see is that of constant outside interference.
          Yes,the Albanians advance one small step at a time.But giving up in the long term is not a solution.
          Those who know don't speak
          He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Mihais View Post
            Hungarians in Vojvodina and the almost a million Romanians in Timok fit quite well in whatever cultural model Serbia has.I'm not sure if the problem is so much with the Serbs as with the others.Agreed the Albanians were problematic,but it wasn't for the lack of effort on your part.Our potential problematic areas in Transylvania never became so because they understood they had to work with the system,not against it.
            However,had they received enough support we would have been in the same crap.For the sake of realism,let's not forget this wasn't only between Serbs and Albanians.
            The only pattern I see is that of constant outside interference.
            Yes,the Albanians advance one small step at a time.But giving up in the long term is not a solution.
            I am not talking about giving up, quite opposite. Letting those municipalities join Kosovo, than form a buffer around Kosovo from which they will be unable to advance further. And that includes, minefields, outposts, bases, huge and constant military presence. We need to re arm and formulate new doctrine for our military that is based on reality not wishful thinking,"glorious" past or "fabulous" future.
            Unfortunately Mihais, it was. We failed to make Serbia to be more appealing to them than Great Albania. Their choice was quite obvious and expected and they reacted according to those feelings.
            Last edited by Versus; 03 Aug 11,, 19:35.

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            • #66
              It's a chicken and egg problem.What is certain is that some problems simply can't be solved peacefully without both sides wanting it.Albanians drew the first blood.

              Serbian army actually struck me as very realistic about the situation.Of course,international deployments are nothing but diplomatic cookies,but nevertheless they maintain some sort of edge.We're heavily engaged in this kind of things for a decade.The result is that maneuver units get the operational experience at btn. level.The downside is that almost anything else is starved from a financial pov.
              Your army being reduced heavily is a logical course of action.Anyone could see in 2002-2003 there was no chance of a conflict.But the tradition is still there and it will remain for another decade.If opportunity arises you can rebuild a decent force in 5-6 years.Not good enough to face a NATO equivalent force,but you don't have to.Only to mop-up some militias and gangs.
              What I see as a future need is some sort of military alliance of SE states that has to include Serbia,Greece,Bulgaria and us.NATO works for now,but we'd be fools to trust it 100%(we are fools,for now).
              Last edited by Mihais; 03 Aug 11,, 20:03.
              Those who know don't speak
              He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

              Comment


              • #67
                @Versus

                Funny thing I seen here is Albanians that actually visited Albania (even now) give up the Great Albania idea.
                They realize Albania needs at least 20 years to reach the current infrastructural level they have at the moment. Also, I see a downwards demographic trend among Albanian population. While it was usual for Albanians to have 7 kids 20 years ago, now they have maximum 3. The bad economy is hitting them, too.

                I was in Struga last week and noticed nice new buildings staying empty, with "For sale/rent" signs on the windows.
                Drugs and trafficking make good cash, but it's still the hard working people among them who are the mass.

                IMV the problem with the Albanians in former Yugoslavia started in the beginning of the '70s when a lot of educated Albanians couldn't find a job and melt in the system.

                Few months ago I have been reading an OSCE document about the situation of the minorities and their inclusion in the system. With all the positive discrimination and a lot of concessions given to (all) the minorities here they are still not represented in the system adequately (quantitative, not qualitative).

                @Mihais
                I think situations like this should be solved by the police, not the army. It's better option for dealing with civilians and it's better for the general PR. If MSM say a brigade entered a village it's bad PR, but if it is a convoy of police SUVs they don't even bother to report it ;)

                IDK why you put Bulgarians and the Greeks in the same basket with Serbia or Macedonia. Tho they are both inside EU and NATO, both countries don't recognize minorities on their territories. Not sure what's the situation in Romania.
                No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                  @Versus

                  Funny thing I seen here is Albanians that actually visited Albania (even now) give up the Great Albania idea.
                  They realize Albania needs at least 20 years to reach the current infrastructural level they have at the moment. Also, I see a downwards demographic trend among Albanian population. While it was usual for Albanians to have 7 kids 20 years ago, now they have maximum 3. The bad economy is hitting them, too.

                  I was in Struga last week and noticed nice new buildings staying empty, with "For sale/rent" signs on the windows.
                  Drugs and trafficking make good cash, but it's still the hard working people among them who are the mass.

                  IMV the problem with the Albanians in former Yugoslavia started in the beginning of the '70s when a lot of educated Albanians couldn't find a job and melt in the system.

                  Few months ago I have been reading an OSCE document about the situation of the minorities and their inclusion in the system. With all the positive discrimination and a lot of concessions given to (all) the minorities here they are still not represented in the system adequately (quantitative, not qualitative).

                  @Mihais
                  I think situations like this should be solved by the police, not the army. It's better option for dealing with civilians and it's better for the general PR. If MSM say a brigade entered a village it's bad PR, but if it is a convoy of police SUVs they don't even bother to report it ;)

                  IDK why you put Bulgarians and the Greeks in the same basket with Serbia or Macedonia. Tho they are both inside EU and NATO, both countries don't recognize minorities on their territories. Not sure what's the situation in Romania.
                  Doktor, they are not dumb,you know. Although Albanians in Albania kind of oppose to the idea, that doesn't mean that the idea doesn't exist. After the war in Kosovo ended, it continued in the southern municipalities and than it spilled into Macedonia. Also there are reports that Greece is having the same problem too. I think that this issue needs to be taken quite seriously. The main threat comes from the fact that all whom opposed the Albanians, underestimated them in the first place and that was the main cause for defeat.

                  Here are some videos of Balkan madness this time from the Albanian side:
                  Kosovo:‪Marshi i UÇK Arif Vladi‬‏ - YouTube
                  Southern Serbia:‪Ramush karadaku Presheva‬‏ - YouTube
                  Macedonia:‪UCK 2001 Kumanov,Tetov www.seid.tk‬‏ - YouTube
                  Greece:‪Ushtria Çlirimtare e Çamerise‬‏ - YouTube

                  So you have the idea, you have the man power in place, you have the financial support trough one of the most powerful criminal cartel, well established lobbies both in the US and in EU.Also it goes without saying, that the various intelligence services and interest groups are absolutely in love with them. I mean, what else do you need?
                  Last edited by Versus; 04 Aug 11,, 07:04.

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                  • #69
                    Versus, IDK how you reached the conclusion I am underestimating Albanians or saying they are dumb.

                    All I am saying is that the ordinary Albanian in Macedonia or South Serbia is a poor individual.

                    Sorry, but I failed to see something new in those videos.
                    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                      Versus, IDK how you reached the conclusion I am underestimating Albanians or saying they are dumb.

                      All I am saying is that the ordinary Albanian in Macedonia or South Serbia is a poor individual.

                      Sorry, but I failed to see something new in those videos.
                      I know:) Videos are just to spice up the conversation. However, they are much better equipped and organized now. Interesting thing, I just dropped to check out the official web page of our armed forces...It appears that we have 33.000 men...bwahahahha. Epic fail.
                      Last edited by Versus; 04 Aug 11,, 13:43.

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                      • #71
                        Call me old-fashioned but I don't recall there was a victory parade here in Macedonia and the girls trowing flowers and kissing armed men. This tells me noone was victor and this ain't over. As a matter of fact I Googled/YTed for such vids but nothing. Same goes to Kosovo.

                        As for the Serbian army, 33k well trained and equipped are far better (and cheaper) then 200k rookies. What's the size of regular Serb police forces now compared to 10 years ago is also interesting to find out.
                        No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                        To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                          Call me old-fashioned but I don't recall there was a victory parade here in Macedonia and the girls trowing flowers and kissing armed men. This tells me noone was victor and this ain't over. As a matter of fact I Googled/YTed for such vids but nothing. Same goes to Kosovo.

                          As for the Serbian army, 33k well trained and equipped are far better (and cheaper) then 200k rookies. What's the size of regular Serb police forces now compared to 10 years ago is also interesting to find out.
                          Huh? I am not a nationalist Doktor. I never supported the Serbian war efforts nor that whole thing, although I was a part of that. I am simply a bit worried from a strategic point of view. I am not looking from the current perspective, but from the future. Unfortunately those 33.000 are not well equipped and most of them will go on the overseas missions since the average salary for a soldier here is 300 euros. I don't know, I am mostly concerned with the security issues on the longer run. I am dealing with this from a purely tactical and technical point of view.

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                          • #73
                            I am not a nationalist neither. I am saying I am worried as there were no victory parades. This is how wars end. At least in the past.

                            This tells me it's not over yet and that worries me a lot.

                            I am not following the things in Serbia for a while. I am sorry your economic growth stopped as it was good for the whole region and for the friends I have there.

                            My point was 33.000 men on 8 million population and only one disputable border seems fair enough to me. It also depends how much power Serbia wants to display and where. Don't forget you have a lot of veterans that can be mobilized on a short notice. I am curious if you can tell me how you handled those veterans. Hope not like we did with ours from 1990 or from 2001.

                            Serbian army on oversea missions? Where?
                            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                              I am not a nationalist neither. I am saying I am worried as there were no victory parades. This is how wars end. At least in the past.

                              This tells me it's not over yet and that worries me a lot.

                              I am not following the things in Serbia for a while. I am sorry your economic growth stopped as it was good for the whole region and for the friends I have there.

                              My point was 33.000 men on 8 million population and only one disputable border seems fair enough to me. It also depends how much power Serbia wants to display and where. Don't forget you have a lot of veterans that can be mobilized on a short notice. I am curious if you can tell me how you handled those veterans. Hope not like we did with ours from 1990 or from 2001.

                              Serbian army on oversea missions? Where?
                              Oh,Afghanistan,Iraq,Libya, protecting pipelines in Africa, you name it. The most skillful ones became mercenaries. Veterans? Same old story,if they are lucky, they have some sort of aid but most of them have nothing. I wouldn't count on that at all, I've seen reservists in real situation, their performance was poor at best. If we want small but effective force, logistic and transport comes first, even before fire power. Meaning, good transport helicopters and APC's, communication and that whole intelligence/reconnaissance part which means drones and other means, recon teams and most of all highly effective intelligence. Than we need smart munitions and delivery systems for those. We need light armor and artillery suited for quick and decisive reaction and support.

                              We need to know where to hit and than to hit it hard.

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                              • #75
                                Your army is there (A-stan, Iraq...) or mercenaries?

                                I am thinking the same about our army. See we don't have tanks, the copters are down and last time we bought modern weapons was, well never.

                                OTOH the police is spending more and more.
                                No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                                To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                                Comment

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