Mumbai Plotter Testifies About Training

[Agnostic Muslim]

So by your words can we take it as that even before 'US invasion of Afganistan' , Pakistan had sheltered terrorists and only that after the 'invasion' the terrorists in number that Pakistan shelter 'increases' ???

I think my point about the US being the catalyst for terrorist violence in both Iraq and Pakistan is pretty clear - you don't have to rephrase it or ask me to rephrase it support whatever distorted argument you want to raise.

[commander]

What sorts of material about a top secret intelligence operation that was supposedly kept secret from even close US allies, would a retired Canadian Colonel have access to? And if a retired Canadian Colonel can have access to information related to the exact nature of the evidence provided by the ISI to the CIA (and it differs from the publicly available accounts I have mentioned)

Well I think he mentioned about the 'expertise' of colonel in the field and in result thinking 'logically' and not just 'speculating' on information available that a nations financial status can be rewritten rapidly

[Agnostic Muslim]

Well I think he mentioned about the 'expertise' of colonel in the field and in result thinking 'logically' and not just 'speculating' on information available that a nations financial status can be rewritten rapidly

The Colonel hasn't said anything to me on the issue of improving Pakistan's financial status.

OoE's argument with me is over his claims that Pakistan knew the identity of the courier and that the identity/information about, the courier is the intelligence provided by Pakistan to the US. I pointed out to him that the publicly available information clearly states that the information provided by Pakistan did not indicate Pakistani knowledge of the identity or location of the courier -Pakistani provided information about a third individual, whom the US monitored electronically, and caught a lucky break when the courier called that individual using a disposable cell phone, against the instructions of OBL. The courier was identified, located and tracked from that point on.

All these details have been offered to the media - why would something slightly different, about the nature of Pakistani intelligence provided to the US, be hidden?

If the intelligence provided by Pakistan was much more critical than what has been mentioned in the media, then Pakistan did its bit, and does not want the extent of its cooperation known to prevent a backlash domestically.

If the intelligence provided by Pakistan was about the same as mentioned in the media, or slightly less, then while critical, it does not support OoE's argument that Pakistan knew the identity of the courier because of the intelligence provided to the US.

Either way Pakistan comes out clean IMO.

[commander]

AM it was a typo.. here is what I meant to say.. You once replied dreadnought in this same thread that you don't need the aid from US and you said Pakistan can manage it's own financial status.
You said what would a Canadian colonel would know off so I said he has experience in this field and he can think logically and replies the same. Not like you who have no experience on how a nation's budget and everything is done saying that Pakistan can manage her financial status from within.

[Agnostic Muslim]

AM it was a typo.. here is what I meant to say.. You once replied dreadnought in this same thread that you don't need the aid from US and you said Pakistan can manage it's own financial status.
You said what would a Canadian colonel would know off so I said he has experience in this field and he can think logically and replies the same. Not like you who have no experience on how a nation's budget and everything is done saying that Pakistan can manage her financial status from within.

I am sorry, but what kind of 'experience' allows someone to 'deduce' the 'nature of classified intelligence provided by the intelligence agency of one nation to the intelligence agency of another nation'? He isn't even an American Colonel.

At best he has access to the same kind of second hand 'hearsay' information that people like N_ Eagle have - OoE might have access to friends or colleagues in the US military, or linked to them, and N_E and others have access through their own 'family and colleagues' in the PakMil. In any case, the kind of arguments being made here don't require 'extensive experience in the military', and OoE has not offered any actual reason for his opinion about the nature of Pakistani intelligence provided to the US. And as I mentioned, a tidbit of information such as whether or not Pakistan knowingly provided the identity of the courier to the US is not really something that would be 'highly secret' at this point - both men are dead, and we all know that the US identified and tracked the courier, so why hide the fact that Pakistan knew about the couriers identity and provided it to the US?

And I have quoted oft repeated arguments and solutions to Pakistan's resource crunch - numbers don't lie. Pakistan needs to fix the State Owned Enterprizes that cost it billions of dollars annually, and it needs to fix its tax system to bring more people into the tax net to potentially raise billions more. If you disagree, feel free to offer your own reasons and arguments why.

Simply questioning my 'experience' is not a valid refutation of my points.

[Agnostic Muslim]

They are making that loss because they are not supposed to be for-profit to begin with. Once you add in a private component you are going to see services cut because they are no longer viable. Thats when the agitation begins. Witness the strikes in Europe over reduced & elliminated benefits.

In Europe most of the SOE's actually provide most of the services they should. In Pakistan, despite the massive direct losses and additional losses from corruption, the PSE's also fail to properly deliver the services and products they offer, and in many cases they have enjoyed monopolies or near monopolies in their respective sectors.

Take Pakistan Steel, PIA and other industries - all of these loss making PSE's have a lions share of the market, and they produce products and provide services that there is a huge market for. Private airlines have, and will, step in to cover the routes that are profitable, and with better services and efficiency, perhaps also introduce lower rates to increase traffic. The GoP can still operate, or mandate, a certain number of flights by a private airlines in Pakistan, flights to remote low traffic locations, at a fraction of the cost the taxpayer accepts currently. Steel products are still imported into Pakistan, and there are plenty of willing buyers for Pakistan Steel who are willing to negotiate expansion of the mills as part of a privatization deal.

You can't go cold turkey overnight. It has to be phased in gradually. What funds are you going to replace elliminated services with. Where will they come from ?

Services wont be eliminated, they will be taken over by the private sector. The government will save billions of dollars a year that it can then plow into development, education and healthcare. The process might be slow, but if the military is willing to tolerate the current corrupt and ineffective government in power, they will more than likely allow a government committed to reform to implement their polices over five years.

Again, so long as Pakistani political leaders keep finding a way to tap into 'aid' they will have little incentive to enact reforms at home.

[Double Edge]

Take Pakistan Steel, PIA and other industries - all of these loss making PSE's have a lions share of the market, and they produce products and provide services that there is a huge market for.

Private airlines have, and will, step in to cover the routes that are profitable, and with better services and efficiency, perhaps also introduce lower rates to increase traffic. The GoP can still operate, or mandate, a certain number of flights by a private airlines in Pakistan, flights to remote low traffic locations, at a fraction of the cost the taxpayer accepts currently. Steel products are still imported into Pakistan, and there are plenty of willing buyers for Pakistan Steel who are willing to negotiate expansion of the mills as part of a privatization deal.

Hasn't Pakistan had any liberal reforms yet ie opening up public sectors ?

Or another way of asking that question is what sectors have been reformed to date.

India has been at it for twenty years or so now, would have thought similar was the case in Pakistan.

Services wont be eliminated, they will be taken over by the private sector. The government will save billions of dollars a year that it can then plow into development, education and healthcare. The process might be slow, but if the military is willing to tolerate the current corrupt and ineffective government in power, they will more than likely allow a government committed to reform to implement their polices over five years.

Again, so long as Pakistani political leaders keep finding a way to tap into 'aid' they will have little incentive to enact reforms at home.

The thing about reforms is it entails breaking up the status quo. Things are the way they are because of entrenched interests. For the govt to sell of sectors means it has to make up for the loss of revenue with taxes from the private sector. Taxes can't be too high or there won't be any interest from the private sector to begin with. That means there will be a period where the govt will have less revenue than it was used to before the private sector can fill in the gap.

How much of a storm that intermediary period will generate it difficult to say.

How powerful are public sector unions in your country. Can they shut the whole country down with bandhs/strikes if they choose to ?

They're the ones who wil be complaining over the lost jobs as a result of this move. Then again. they're partly the reason those losses accrue because of inefficiency. You will have to deal with pushback.

[commander]

Well when you decide just to deny everything blindly you can't see the truth and Pakistan would(/might ???) still say " Terrorists ??? We don't know nothing about them !!!!! " While US kills all the most wanted terrorists in the same soil. So as long us Pakistan comes out of the denial stance and co operates with not only the US any country for that matters Pakistan atleast can save themselves from being embarrassed in front of the International community...

[notorious_eagle]

In Europe most of the SOE's actually provide most of the services they should. In Pakistan, despite the massive direct losses and additional losses from corruption, the PSE's also fail to properly deliver the services and products they offer, and in many cases they have enjoyed monopolies or near monopolies in their respective sectors.

Take Pakistan Steel, PIA and other industries - all of these loss making PSE's have a lions share of the market, and they produce products and provide services that there is a huge market for. Private airlines have, and will, step in to cover the routes that are profitable, and with better services and efficiency, perhaps also introduce lower rates to increase traffic. The GoP can still operate, or mandate, a certain number of flights by a private airlines in Pakistan, flights to remote low traffic locations, at a fraction of the cost the taxpayer accepts currently. Steel products are still imported into Pakistan, and there are plenty of willing buyers for Pakistan Steel who are willing to negotiate expansion of the mills as part of a privatization deal.

No doubt, even though i was quite young but i remember the days when PTCL was completely public owned. It was without a doubt the most horrible telecommunications company in the world, every other day phone lines would be out of service. To get your phone fixed, it was essential to bribe the telephone technicians and setting up a new line would take months. Under the Musharraf Government, part of the company was sold to private investors. The results, its service provided to Pakistani consumers is on par with those of Western Telecommunication companies only at a fraction of the price, it is churning out millions of dollars in profit every year. I have no doubt in my mind that Pakistan Steels and PIA will will become Billion Dollar businesses if they are sold to the private investors. Mian Mansha is interested in acquiring a stake in PIA, if he does, just watch the airlines become a profitable business once more.