Mumbai Plotter Testifies About Training

[commander]

Pakistan will never stop giving refugee to terrorists from all over the world, and this discussion will never end too. Unless something is done.

[S2]

A.M. Reply

It's not a question of resources. We have a lot of resources. As you've pointed out, however, we've also had our mistakes borne of poor judgement.

"Those who question the dominant 9/11 narrative would say yes.

And aside from that, has the US not had its own share of very high profile spies who supplied secret information to other nations for years?

And those who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks were in the US, they lived in the US, they trained at flight schools in the US, they received money from their sponsors in the US, they communicated with fellow terrorists while in the US - that much everyone agrees on..."

Why are you so persistantly focusing upon 9/11? Didn't that happen ten years ago? Hasn't Asim and others railed at the security impositions here in America since made? Isn't it clear-good, bad or indifferent-that the American government is bent upon stopping these attacks? Ten years is a very long time and notable changes in our security outlook and climate have been made.

While we'll continue to make mistakes there's little doubting our intent.

Wouldn't you, therefore, consider this a red herring to the central discussion? A distractor? I do.

The question is whether the Pakistani government has the determination, resources available to the nth degree or otherwise, to take on all terror groups inside its country.

The TTP? Of course. They're committed enemies of your government. Others, however, like the Haqqani network and LeT have languished in conspicuous exclusion from your interests.

After ten years of such notable inactivity most are convinced you've no interest in attacking such groups. The reasons are obvious to counter-terror experts in America, Afghanistan and India.

One can be reasonably convinced that were these groups composed of Indians upon your soil Pakistan would spare no effort to eradicate them by any means available. As both LeT and Haqqani appear to hold value to your foreign policy portfolio, however, they are left alone.

[Agnostic Muslim]

Well lets see, the extremeists obviously have no problem in targeting the Army, Navy and civilians. Particulary the civilians. So what makes you believe they would not overthrow but rather attack and murder the reigning government officials at will?

I am not talking about the 'militants overthrowing the government', but rather a combination of other 'political and/or military forces'. The only thing the militants can do and will do, regardless of whether US aid continues or stops, is what they are doing now - terrorist attacks on military and civilian targets. Their revenue, men and material sources are not affected by US aid to Pakistan, so they will largely continue to operate as they are currently, so long as the military operations, governance and lack of development issues remain limited to their current levels.

Even an increase in militant attacks does not amount to 'civil war', so if that is your justification for your argument of 'civil war', it is a very poor one.

Go ahead and remove all aid from Pakistan and just watch what happens next. One can imagine it wont be pretty.

Please do so - as I have pointed out to you in past posts, Pakistan has the economy to raise more than enough resources to cover the loss of US+IFI aid and loans, if it enacts the necessary tax reforms and shuts down/privatizes the largest loss making Public Sector Enterprizes.

You know something rocket scientist, Right now in my country I KNOW FOR FACT there are Americans who have suffered strife via Tornadoes, Floods, Starving, Homeless, Jobless etc etc etc that could readily use that money and are far more deserving of it, would be very thankfull for it and yet wouldnt even dream of burning the American flag even if they were pissed with the governemnt or its methods. And the funny thing is, the very first words out of their mouth would probably be a heartfelt "thank you".

I would sooner give it to them (without even one thought) then anyone in that toilet of terrorism you call a country. Where at the slightest instance come into the streets, curse my country and burn my flag and support groups that murder our soldiers and slip back across the border into the toilet. I say **** all of them!

Rant, rant, rant - instead of shoorting off your 'toilet mouth', just end the aid already.

And as far as I care the US could nuke the entire place without warning and I wouldnt give a shit outside the fact of the enviromental ramifications.

Precisely why so many nations are interested in acquiring nukes and the ability to launch them at the US.

Amount: say 20 billion (covering intrest ofcoarse)

After we deduct the amount spent on logistical support for US operations in Afghanistan, and subtract the cost of the impact on infrastructure from the transport of supplies and equipment for the US to Afghanistan, as well as the $60 billion cost to Pakistan since the US invasion of Afghanistan, from the impact on the economy and other areas from terrorist violence sparked by the US invasion.

I believe the 'Check', for several billion, would have to be written to the Pakistani taxpayers.

[Dreadnought]

I am not talking about the 'militants overthrowing the government', but rather a combination of other 'political and/or military forces'. The only thing the militants can do and will do, regardless of whether US aid continues or stops, is what they are doing now - terrorist attacks on military and civilian targets. Their revenue, men and material sources are not affected by US aid to Pakistan, so they will largely continue to operate as they are currently, so long as the military operations, governance and lack of development issues remain limited to their current levels.

Even an increase in militant attacks does not amount to 'civil war', so if that is your justification for your argument of 'civil war', it is a very poor one.


Please do so - as I have pointed out to you in past posts, Pakistan has the economy to raise more than enough resources to cover the loss of US+IFI aid and loans, if it enacts the necessary tax reforms and shuts down/privatizes the largest loss making Public Sector Enterprizes.



Rant, rant, rant - instead of shoorting off your 'toilet mouth', just end the aid already.


Precisely why so many nations are interested in acquiring nukes and the ability to launch them at the US.



After we deduct the amount spent on logistical support for US operations in Afghanistan, and subtract the cost of the impact on infrastructure from the transport of supplies and equipment for the US to Afghanistan, as well as the $60 billion cost to Pakistan since the US invasion of Afghanistan, from the impact on the economy and other areas from terrorist violence sparked by the US invasion.

I believe the 'Check', for several billion, would have to be written to the Pakistani taxpayers.

Hey genius, what do you think is going to happen when the people are pissed off at the government for not protecting them against the very same element they allow to exist on their soil to begin with? Hmmm? How are they poosibly going to fund those operations? I bet you think they will be reasonable and just go home and forget about it until a new government is formed and the corruption routed out of its politicians and military right and Pakiastan amazingly "overnight" according to your view can stabilize? Its not going to happen that way. Look at Libya, Syria, Egypt, Yemen and others. Those people realized they wont get a fair hand in their governments and just take a look at the measures they are willing to go to to achieve what they believe is fair. You dont think this will happen in Pakistan if their funding for the governemnt and infastructure ceases? Dream on.

What happens when the problems get worse when there is no aid. An economy cant grow no matter how much you say it will especially while its constanly being riddled by attacks from within and from the US drone strikes. People panic and get angry and clash how you see this improving the economy is any sort of way is a fallacy. When people are working, their families are supported, they are happy. Stifle that economy because you cannot afford to protect them from terrorists that operate on home soil within the governments knowledge will only compound those troubles. Many would bet her economy would collapse and then the government would fall which means it would take years again to start routing out the groups and improve the economy.

I honesty wish my country would. Since WWII the American forces have dealt with much much more problems in the way of their supply lines to their forces and every single time they overcame them. I dont see Pakistan being an issue either compared to those achievments. Not at all if they wish to overcome it.

It suites me just fine they cut it off and just continue and up their drone strikes in Pakistan no matter where they are located and all for nothing. No arguments there IMO. Save us mucho dollars, troops and time.

A funny comment coming from a country that breeds terror, allows it to exist on its soil and denies it to boot. Like I stated... a toilet.

Especially one that couldnt release a nuclear weapon without their "masters" ok. Yep, thats pretty independent if you ask me.

Face the fact ...Your country will always be someones bitch for fears that terror could come home to roost to those that breed terror and allow it too exist on Pakastani soil. It wouldnt have this problem if it decided to follow justice and the civilized world.

Tell you what about us paying you anthing...you can shit in one hand and wish in the other and see what you get. If it wasnt for your country harboring terror which is the very root of this thread the country wouldnt have the problems it has now. Go figure genius.

[S2]

A.M. Reply

"...After we deduct the amount spent on logistical support for US operations in Afghanistan, and subtract the cost of the impact on infrastructure from the transport of supplies and equipment for the US to Afghanistan, as well as the $60 billion cost to Pakistan since the US invasion of Afghanistan, from the impact on the economy and other areas from terrorist violence sparked by the US invasion."

The assumption, of course, presumes had Al Qaeda not made war upon America while under the protection of the Afghan taliban government you'd not face any of the problems otherwise faced today.

Quite likely very, very wrong. Only those in Pakistan whom believe this isn't their war can even presume such a thought. If, OTOH, it IS your war then you bear a burden for your own defense. Sizeable perhaps but the British empire was, as example, prepared to utterly wreck its economy and global assets to wage war upon the Germans and Japanese in recognition of the existential threat to their way of life. This, despite every effort by Hitler to mollify the British. Great Britain understood, however, that such could only be a facade.

Pakistan, too, should have easily understood that the Afghan taliban and their "guests" could bear no goodwill in the longterm to the Pakistani government as configured. Your nation's government is the antithesis of all for which they stand.

This is your war. You've your costs. Perhaps a more effective taxation system might more equitably distribute that burden?

[Doktor]

I don't know if it's right thread as there are many about Pakistan, so admins will probably put this in place...

I keep reading Pakistan is a failed state for letting Talibans on her territory and failing to expel them.

Let's flip the coin. What is Afghanistan then? With all those NATO troops in Af there still are Talibans crossing the border both ways like going for a shopping.
I know it is easy to pull the finger at Pakistan, but their civilians die from the plots on their soil. If I was in charge of something there I'd be very frustrated.

[Double Edge]

I keep reading Pakistan is a failed state for letting Talibans on her territory and failing to expel them.

There's more reasons. But that 'failed state' moniker has gone stale because Pakistan clearly has not failed. We keep on hearing its gonna happen real soon now...

MJ Akbar, editor of India Today magazine recently refered to Pakistan as a toxic jelly. Wobbles but does not collapse, toxic nontheless.

[Officer of Engineers]

Where exactly did you hear/read that the ISI discovered OBL's location in Pakistan?

More Horse puckey! Your ISI discovered OBL's Lines of Communications in Pakistan. The ONLY LOGICAL CONCLUSION, and ONE YOU'VE ABSOLUTELY FAILED AT, OBL WAS IN PAKISTAN!

From what I understand, they passed on certain information on an individual that they thought was connected to OBL, the US did the electronic monitoring of that individual based on ISI, figured out the identity of the courier using both the information provided by the ISI and other sources, and then tracked the courier to OBl's location. IMO, while the ISI provided a key piece of the puzzle that allowed the US to develop intelligence leading to OBL's location, there is nothing to support your argument that the ISI was aware of the location itself, or the exact identity of the courier.

If you disagree with the above, I would like to know on what basis.

I want to know your understanding of English! Your ISI discovered OBL's Line of Communications and did absolutely nothing about it. Note my words! I have said NOTHING ABOUT OBL'S LOCATION BUT THAT YOUR ISI, CONFIRMED BY YOUR ISI, DISCOVERED OBL'S LINK TO THE NEWS MEDIA ... AND DID ZERO ABOUT IT!

OBL was a CIA priority, not an ISI one. Most Pakistanis, and that would include the military, political and intelligence leadership, believed OBL to be dead or in hiding around the Afghan-Pakistan border.

Oh, this is beautiful. It confirms what I said. YOU ARE A FREAKING STOOGE AND YOUR OWN WORDS PROVED IT! The ONE PERSON WHO FORCED YOU ONTO THIS WAR AGAINST THE TALIBAN ... AND IT IS VERY CLEAR NOW THAT YOU DO NOT HOLD OBL RESPONSIBLE!

LET ME BE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR ABOUT THIS! YOU DID NOT WANT TO FIND OBL IN YOUR TERRITORY AND SINCE WE FOUND HIM IN YOUR TERRITORY, YOU ARE BLAMING EVERYONE ELSE BUT YOUR OWN PEOPLE FOR YOUR FREAKING MISTAKES FOR NOT LOOKING FOR HIM IN YOUR OWN TERRITORY ... ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU FOUND OBL'S OWN LOC IN YOUR OWN TERRITORY.

You can question all you want, but unless you want to provide the ISI with the same ELINT/SIGINT capabilities as the NSA/CIA, that allowed the US to track down the courier based on multiple sources of information, your 'questioning' is duplictious and self-serving.

No, you freaking idiot! AND I AM CALLING YOU A FREAKING IDIOT BECAUSE I CAN NO LONGER STAND YOUR IGNORANCE. I am asking why the hell the ISI did not put a pair of eyes, as in a human tail, as in a man following the courier.

In case you've missed all this, AM, you freaking dumb ass, this was HUMAN INTELLIGENCE, the CIA put a tail on the courier, ie a man who followed the courier. But your ISI was obviously too lazy to do real work ... and only you, an apologist, cannot see it.

I'm done. You are ignored.

[vsdoc]

I know you well enough to have made the comment in my last post.

Likewise. You are a confused desi kid sitting in amrika, acting the big man on the net. Send your dad to debate with me. At least I would be able to relate to his generation. Doesn't mean we would like each other any more or less. Just that it would be nice to speak to someone on the other side of the divide from the same generation. Someone who has done something in life before shooting his mouth off.

My point was to merely inform you that I therefore have no time to engage with the nonsensical and hateful commentary you post.

In that case you wasted your time and mine responding to my post in the first instance. That you did just means something I said hit a raw nerve, and caused the threadbare veil of vilayati sophistry to slip for a bit.

So be it. Your time or your opinions are your problem. Not mine.

You know what's happening here and elsewhere right?

You guys are fighting a losing battle.

But that should not be new to you. Considering who you are fighting against.

Yet again.

[Agnostic Muslim]

More Horse puckey! Your ISI discovered OBL's Lines of Communications in Pakistan. The ONLY LOGICAL CONCLUSION, and ONE YOU'VE ABSOLUTELY FAILED AT, OBL WAS IN PAKISTAN!

I want to know your understanding of English! Your ISI discovered OBL's Line of Communications and did absolutely nothing about it. Note my words! I have said NOTHING ABOUT OBL'S LOCATION BUT THAT YOUR ISI, CONFIRMED BY YOUR ISI, DISCOVERED OBL'S LINK TO THE NEWS MEDIA ... AND DID ZERO ABOUT IT!

I gave you the open source account of exactly what kind of intelligence the ISI allegedly provided the CIA - information about an individual who might be connected to OBL - just because that individual might be connected to OBL does not mean that OBL was in Pakistan. Nothing from open sources supports your arguments that the information provided by the ISI was anymore than that. Information from open sources also indicates that the CIA informed the ISI that the information provided to them about that particular individual was a 'dead end'. Why should the ISI have done any more after that. Ranting, yelling and swearing, as you are doing, are not a refutation of my point above.

I'll ask you again, on what basis do you disagree with the above? Point me to a difference credible source that argues that the evidence provided by the ISI was anything more than information on an individual with supposedly connected to OBL - 'connected to OBL' does not translate to 'located in Pakistan, Abbotabad'.

Oh, this is beautiful. It confirms what I said. YOU ARE A FREAKING STOOGE AND YOUR OWN WORDS PROVED IT! The ONE PERSON WHO FORCED YOU ONTO THIS WAR AGAINST THE TALIBAN ... AND IT IS VERY CLEAR NOW THAT YOU DO NOT HOLD OBL RESPONSIBLE!

Nonsense - it means precisely what I said, OBL was not Pakistan's priority, and should not have been Pakistan's priority. Pakistani military and political leaders said this multiple times, they did not think of him, as an individual, as a threat anymore. His organization, Aq, and others such as the TTP, and their funding and supply and training networks, and their cells carrying out terrorist attacks, were and are the threat.

The above is true even now - OBL's death changes nothing in terms of the threat from AQ and associated organizations. Pakistan has seen far more terrorist attacks in the weeks after OBL's death than in the months preceding it.

Nek Mohammed was killed and Abdullah Mehsud took his place - A Mehsud was killed and Baitullah Mehsud took his place - B Mehsud was killed and Hakimullah Mehsud took his place. If anything, each successive leader of the TTP ended up being even more brutal and violent than the last.

So no, again, OBL was not the main threat, was not the main priority, and neither should anyone else be that takes his place. If they get killed, great, but their individual deaths are not going to change anything.

LET ME BE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR ABOUT THIS! YOU DID NOT WANT TO FIND OBL IN YOUR TERRITORY AND SINCE WE FOUND HIM IN YOUR TERRITORY, YOU ARE BLAMING EVERYONE ELSE BUT YOUR OWN PEOPLE FOR YOUR FREAKING MISTAKES FOR NOT LOOKING FOR HIM IN YOUR OWN TERRITORY ... ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU FOUND OBL'S OWN LOC IN YOUR OWN TERRITORY.

Pakistan provided a key part of the intelligence that led to OBL - following the provision of that intelligence, the CIA and the US outright lied to Pakistan that the evidence amounted to nothing, and then proceeded to track OBL down.

That Pakistan provided a key part of the intelligence that led to OBL indicates that Pakistan was 'looking', though, as I said, the search for OBL was nowhere near the top of Pakistan's priority list, which was completely justified.

I therefore see no substance in your argument and allegation - the facts indicate otherwise, and yelling and swearing will not change that.

I am asking why the hell the ISI did not put a pair of eyes, as in a human tail, as in a man following the courier.

In case you've missed all this, AM, you freaking dumb ass, this was HUMAN INTELLIGENCE, the CIA put a tail on the courier, ie a man who followed the courier. But your ISI was obviously too lazy to do real work ... and only you, an apologist, cannot see it.

You are leaving out a major part of the ELINT effort that led to a 'human tail' being put on the courier. It was the information provided by the ISI, reportedly, that allowed the US to monitor communications to this particular individual - the courier who was eventually tracked contacted this particular man, which led to the US identifying him as the courier, and then putting a human tail on him. This is all from the media. There is nothing to suggest that Pakistan had the identity of a man that they knew to be 'OBL's courier'. All they had was a possible contact, and he ended up being a contact of a contact (courier who was eventually tracked).

If you have credible sources offering more details, and details that differ from the account presented above, then please provide them. As of now I see no justification for your allegations and arguments.

I'm done. You are ignored.

Suit yourself - does not change the fact that your allegations are not supported by the available open-source information related to the intelligence provided by Pakistan.

[Agnostic Muslim]

Likewise. You are a confused desi kid sitting in amrika, acting the big man on the net. Send your dad to debate with me. At least I would be able to relate to his generation. Doesn't mean we would like each other any more or less. Just that it would be nice to speak to someone on the other side of the divide from the same generation. Someone who has done something in life before shooting his mouth off.

What does my age, generation, accomplishments, location etc. have anything to do with the veracity of my arguments?

Perhaps you think the above is relevant since you find it relevant and fit to frequently include racist and ethnically derogatory commentary in your posts, as if that somehow justifies your caricature of the 'evil, vile, stupid Pakistani/Punjabi and Pakistan'.

Ponder a moment on what you have written above, and your racist and ethnically derogatory commentary from before, and perhaps you might be able to comprehend which one of us is actually 'shooting his mouth off and posting irrelevant nonsense'.

That you did just means something I said hit a raw nerve, and caused the threadbare veil of vilayati sophistry to slip for a bit.

I would imagine that anyone who finds themselves and their nation/people the subject of racist and ethnically derogatory commentary would have a 'raw nerve hit'.

No apologies from me there.

If you find racism and ethnically derogatory comments in an argument/debate relevant and acceptable, then you certainly do need to converse with people from a 'different generation' - Jim Crow and earlier perhaps.

[Agnostic Muslim]

Hey genius, what do you think is going to happen when the people are pissed off at the government for not protecting them against the very same element they allow to exist on their soil to begin with?

Nothing - the military will be better able to make the case that they are fighting this war for Pakistan, rather than under US diktat and for US dollars. And the funding for continued operations can be easily generated from merely shutting down the largest PSE's that lose over $3 billion annually - more than enough to cover the loss of annual US aid.

Hmmm? How are they poosibly going to fund those operations?

See above, since you appear to have missed the figures and means to cover the loss of US and IFI aid/loans that I have provided, several times now.

I bet you think they will be reasonable and just go home and forget about it until a new government is formed and the corruption routed out of its politicians and military right and Pakiastan amazingly "overnight" according to your view can stabilize? Its not going to happen that way. Look at Libya, Syria, Egypt, Yemen and others. Those people realized they wont get a fair hand in their governments and just take a look at the measures they are willing to go to to achieve what they believe is fair. You dont think this will happen in Pakistan if their funding for the governemnt and infastructure ceases? Dream on.

Part of the process and struggle for a nation to reform and evolve. In any case, that is a problem Pakistanis and Pakistan have to deal with, and I am sure they will, once way or another.

[Agnostic Muslim]

"...After we deduct the amount spent on logistical support for US operations in Afghanistan, and subtract the cost of the impact on infrastructure from the transport of supplies and equipment for the US to Afghanistan, as well as the $60 billion cost to Pakistan since the US invasion of Afghanistan, from the impact on the economy and other areas from terrorist violence sparked by the US invasion."

The assumption, of course, presumes had Al Qaeda not made war upon America while under the protection of the Afghan taliban government you'd not face any of the problems otherwise faced today.

Quite likely very, very wrong. Only those in Pakistan whom believe this isn't their war can even presume such a thought. If, OTOH, it IS your war then you bear a burden for your own defense. Sizeable perhaps but the British empire was, as example, prepared to utterly wreck its economy and global assets to wage war upon the Germans and Japanese in recognition of the existential threat to their way of life. This, despite every effort by Hitler to mollify the British. Great Britain understood, however, that such could only be a facade.

Pakistan, too, should have easily understood that the Afghan taliban and their "guests" could bear no goodwill in the longterm to the Pakistani government as configured. Your nation's government is the antithesis of all for which they stand.

This is your war. You've your costs. Perhaps a more effective taxation system might more equitably distribute that burden?

I remain unconvinced that the TTP and associated groups would have been able to mobilize the amount of support they have currently, without being able to inflame people against the US invasion of Afghanistan and convincing many that the Pakistan Government and Military were acting under US diktat and for US funds. Even now, with the Government and Military facing a lot of criticizm over the Raymond Davis issue, Drone Strikes and the OBL raid, the criticizm revolves around the Government and military secretly allowing all of the above for the sake of 'US Dollars' and under US pressure.

So long as that impression remains, it will remain difficult to increase support for security and constitutional measures against terrorism and extremism beyond the current levels.

[Dreadnought]

Nothing - the military will be better able to make the case that they are fighting this war for Pakistan, rather than under US diktat and for US dollars. And the funding for continued operations can be easily generated from merely shutting down the largest PSE's that lose over $3 billion annually - more than enough to cover the loss of annual US aid.


Yep and you, young and inexperienced as can be is going to tell a full Colonel about warfare. Especially, when his forces have contributed to the WOT and also that he has light years beyond you of experience on the Chinese side (which he is, if you havent figured that out by now genius). Yep, you know alot alright, enough to draw his ire. Its not even a fact that he disagrees with you point, the fact is he knows first hand, not second hand and not by a relative. Congratulations.

Live in your dream world and enjoy.


See above, since you appear to have missed the figures and means to cover the loss of US and IFI aid/loans that I have provided, several times now.



Part of the process and struggle for a nation to reform and evolve. In any case, that is a problem Pakistanis and Pakistan have to deal with, and I am sure they will, once way or another.

Yep and you, young and inexperienced as can be is going to tell a full Colonel about warfare. Especially, when his forces have contributed to the WOT and also that he has light years beyond you of experience on the Chinese side (which he is, if you haven't figured that out by now genius). Yep, you know alot alright, enough to draw his ire. Its not even the fact that he disagrees with your point and has attempted to relate where, the fact is he knows first hand how it works on the ground, not second hand and not by a "relative" and he has spent decades doing it and perfecting it. Congratulations genius, the knowledge just keeps pouring forth.

[Agnostic Muslim]

Yep and you, young and inexperienced as can be is going to tell a full Colonel about warfare. Especially, when his forces have contributed to the WOT and also that he has light years beyond you of experience on the Chinese side (which he is, if you havent figured that out by now genius). Yep, you know alot alright, enough to draw his ire. Its not even a fact that he disagrees with you point, the fact is he knows first hand, not second hand and not by a relative. Congratulations.

Live in your dream world and enjoy.

What relative have I mentioned?

You still appear to be confused, and that does not make your 'defence' of the Colonel's arguments very credible, not to mention the fact that the only thing in that defence above you have is a logical fallacy called 'appeal to authority' i.e: 'since he is a Colonel and has years of experience, therefore he must be correct' - nevermind the fact that he has yet to support his claim that the ISI knew that the man about whom they passed information to the CIA was OBL's courier. As I have pointed out, the details in open source reports indicate that the ISI passed on information on a man who was eventually contacted by the Courier on a disposable phone, which allowed the CIA to identify the man as the courier, and then track him to OBL's hideout.

The ISI did not provide information directly about the courier himself.