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Thread: Muslim Accused of Assaulting Son Through Circumcision

  1. #1
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    Muslim Accused of Assaulting Son Through Circumcision

    An interesting case, judgement on which is going to need to balance out legal parental responsibility and religious sentiment :


    Muslim Accused of Assaulting Son Through Circumcision

    By James Tapsfield, PA


    A Muslim “assaulted” his five-year-old son by having him circumcised against his mother’s wishes, a court heard today.

    The father is alleged to have secretly taken the boy to a doctor in north London for the procedure.

    Lewes Crown Court heard he then told the mother – an English Christian – what had happened and said: “There is nothing you can do.”

    The 27-year-old man – who lives in Crawley, West Sussex, but cannot be named for legal reasons – denies committing an assault occasioning actual bodily harm in August 2003.

    Irena Ray-Crosby, prosecuting, told the court today that the parents had been involved in a three-month relationship and the mother realised she was pregnant after they broke up.

    Once the defendant, who is of Moroccan origin, realised the child was his he began raising the issue of circumcision in line with his religious beliefs.

    “He told (the mother) he wanted to have the boy circumcised and she said she would agree with that only for medical reasons and never for religious ones.”

    The court heard that in August 2003 – shortly after the boy’s fifth birthday – he went to stay with his father.

    The defendant telephoned the mother and asked her to come out of her house to talk to him, at which point he told her about the circumcision.

    According to Ms Ray-Crosby, the mother accused him of assaulting their son, and the defendant responded: “There’s nothing you can do. I’ve looked into it and it’s perfectly legal.”

    He later sent her a text message saying she should give the boy salty baths in order to help him heal.

    The court heard that the father had been “under pressure” from fellow Muslims to get his son circumcised, and paid £100 in cash for the procedure to be carried out.

    Ms Ray-Crosby said the defendant had admitted when arrested and interviewed by police that he had not told the mother in advance of his plans. She added that there had been no medical reason why the boy needed to be circumcised.

    “This is not a case that is anti-Islam or anti-any other faith. It’s simply about a boy who was circumcised without his mother’s consent.”

    Ms Ray-Crosby said the father had never applied for legal parental responsibility, and therefore could not have provided proper consent for the operation to take place.
    Link.

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    If it was done by a doctor, it would not have hurt.

    If by the local barber as is the custom it is dangerous and would hurt.


    As a Muslim, I presume it would have been necessary or else he would be a kaffir.

    But, it being in England, it would make some legal history.

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    This is assault, he wasn't even in his custody. I hope he dies a slow painful death

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    Actus Reus Senior Contributor sparten's Avatar
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    If he had been a Jew would this have happened?
    "Any relations in a social order will endure if there is infused into them some of that spirit of human sympathy, which qualifies life for immortality." ~ George William Russell

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    Actus Reus Senior Contributor sparten's Avatar
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    They would have argued "anti-semetic" and "Fathers Rights" and the case would have been dropped.
    "Any relations in a social order will endure if there is infused into them some of that spirit of human sympathy, which qualifies life for immortality." ~ George William Russell

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    Dirty Kiwi Senior Contributor
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    he's guilty because he didn't have the right to make that decision, he wasn't the boys legal guardian.

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    Banned platinum786's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinkoo
    If it was done by a doctor, it would not have hurt.

    If by the local barber as is the custom it is dangerous and would hurt.


    As a Muslim, I presume it would have been necessary or else he would be a kaffir.

    But, it being in England, it would make some legal history.
    A barber......?!?!

    Ugh....as far as i know it's always been doctors....barbers stick to hair, not skin.

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    Senior Contributor BenRoethig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinkoo
    If it was done by a doctor, it would not have hurt.

    If by the local barber as is the custom it is dangerous and would hurt.


    As a Muslim, I presume it would have been necessary or else he would be a kaffir.

    But, it being in England, it would make some legal history.
    Since the kid lives with his mother, I presume he is Anglican, not Muslim. Unless there was shared custody, the father had no legal right to do what he did, regardless of his religious beliefs.
    F/A-18E/F Super Hornet: The Honda Accord of fighters.

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    Banned platinum786's Avatar
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    really technically speaking, unless he has custody rights, he is in the wrong.

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    Senior Contributor Asim Aquil's Avatar
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    had the two even established custody? The mother did agree for the kid to live with him. At his fifth birthday he was staying with the father.

    Its a simple case of custody... But I can't believe hes charged with assault, he obviously meant no harm, I doubt anyone can prove that either.

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    Actus Reus Senior Contributor sparten's Avatar
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    As long he is parent, he has certain rights (custody or not). One of these is his "religious beliefs indoctrination right", (believe me I got a similar question in my Family Law paper). This cover the addition of religious apparal and will also probably be okay with circumsition.
    "Any relations in a social order will endure if there is infused into them some of that spirit of human sympathy, which qualifies life for immortality." ~ George William Russell

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    Military Professional Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by platinum786
    A barber......?!?!

    Ugh....as far as i know it's always been doctors....barbers stick to hair, not skin.
    Some views.

    Traditional Muslim
    Male Circumcision

    Performed by Arabs, Turkish, Malaysian and Others of this faith.

    Often, Muslim boys pass through their major status change - circumcision (khitan) - when they have recited the entire Qur'an [Koran] once through. In Malaysia and other regions where this procedure is followed, the boy undergoes the operation at from ten to twelve years of age. It is thus a real puberty rite, separating the boy from childhood and introducing him to a new status. There is much anxious anticipation of circumcision at the age of puberty, because the initiand is increasingly aware of his own sexuality and needs also to demonstrate his bravery and honor. The adults talk a lot about the fearsomness of the circumciser and make frightening remarks right up to the time of the event, which in some causes is semi-public, although it is more and more often performed in a clinic or hospital. In any event, there is much festivity, with music, special foods, and many guests. While the actual event is taking place, one may hear praise of God, partly, as some observers have suggested, to drown out the boy's cries. But the procedure is relatively safe, and those whom perform it are usually trained and experienced.

    I [the author] have witnessed many peremptory circumcision operations in small booths close to the wall of the great Tanta mosque during the autumn mawlid or birthday celebration of the saint, Sidi Ahmad al-Badawi. There, peasant parents simply bring their little boys, from infancy up to ages seven or eight, and the circumciser and usually an assistant hold the boy down while his foreskin is removed. Sometime a man plays a flute or beats a drum. Afterwards the child will be given sweets, like ice cream, and paraded off in honor and triumph as if he were a little prince. Whether the celebration is makeshift and humble or ceremonious and lavish, it is a significant moment in the life of a boy and his parents and siblings. Afterward, if the circumcision takes place around puberty, the boy will enter into full participation in Islamic ritual life, although he may have performed prayers and fasting before, either regularly or occasionally.

    Circumcision is not mentioned in the Qur'an, but Muslims everywhere regard it as essential, and the Hadith record it as a practice enjoined by all past prophets. Significantly, it is also known by a euphemism: tahara, meaning "purification." The age at which it is performed varies from region to region and even from family to family, but most often age seven is preferred, although it is known from as early as the seventh day following birth all the way up to puberty. Adult converts to Islam have traditionally been required to undergo the operation, but this practice is not universally considered to be essential, especially if there is a health risk. Of courrse, in the Bible there are reports of circumcisiions of adult males and mention of the period of healing that was required afterwards (for example, Gen. 17:9-14,23-27; Josh 5:2-9).

    http://www.circlist.com/rites/moslem.html

    Nevertheless, performing circumcision among Muslim families is not only as a result of following the practice of Prophet Muhammad (s.w.s), believing him to be, as the Qur’an says, sent as a healing and a mercy to mankind, but also as a result of their belief that it is the most easiest method to prevent HIV infection as well as other sexually transmitted diseases (STDs). At the time when governments, national and international institutions spend huge sums of money on research with the aim of finding cures, they are advised to encourage people to perform circumcision to prevent HIV infection as well as other sexually transmitted diseases.[35] In one of the important studies conducted by the Islamic Medical Association of South Africa, was found that AIDS is less spread among African tribes, which observe male circumcision in comparison to tribes in which circumcision is not performed. This fact is not only applied to the Muslims in Africa who strictly observe male circumcision, but there is evidence of the fact that even among non-Muslim African tribes, circumcision proves its value with respect to HIV infection. For example, it was found that the African Xhosa tribe, in which male circumcision is an observed practice, has less spread of AIDS than that of the Zulus, who do not circumcise. Both tribes are not Muslim, and they live in similar environmental conditions.[36]

    http://info.med.yale.edu/intmed/humm...deuraseh1e.htm


    So it saves all from AIDS!

    How is circumcision performed?

    Although religious and cultural circumcision is frequently performed without anaesthetic as part of an important ritual act, it is an intensely painful procedure, even in newborn babies.

    Adults can testify to the pain for themselves and can give informed consent to the procedure. Infants, however, cannot. Physiological research has repeatedly shown bodily responses that indicate infants experience severe pain during circumcision.

    It is difficult to justify subjecting infants to this experience when pain could be avoided with a brief general anaesthetic. Anaesthetic injections that numb the penis or the whole genital region are not a reliable substitute for general anaesthesia. If circumcision is important for religious or cultural reasons, then the mohel, or other ritual circumciser, can still perform the procedure and prayers with the assistance of an anaesthetist and surgical team at hand. This practice may not be the traditional family gathering associated with circumcision, but would fulfil religious obligation without causing unnecessary suffering.



    So it should be ideally done without numbing the penis as it is an important ritual.
    Last edited by Ray; 20 Jun 05, at 20:09.

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    Senior Contributor Asim Aquil's Avatar
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    anywayyyyyyyyyyy

    ya sparten, I believe custodial issues were never worked out between the couple... ever.

  14. #14
    Senior Contributor Amled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asim Aquil
    had the two even established custody? The mother did agree for the kid to live with him. At his fifth birthday he was staying with the father.

    Its a simple case of custody... But I can't believe hes charged with assault, he obviously meant no harm, I doubt anyone can prove that either.
    Asim, don't forget that the law is blind. As long as he caused bodily harm to befall the boy he can be convicted of causing bodily harm. The old excuse "I didn't mean any harm!" dont't usually carry much weight. As for proof. Well in this case the proof is self evident.
    When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

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    Actus Reus Senior Contributor sparten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amled
    Asim, don't forget that the law is blind. As long as he caused bodily harm to befall the boy he can be convicted of causing bodily harm. The old excuse "I didn't mean any harm!" dont't usually carry much weight. As for proof. Well in this case the proof is self evident.

    As long as he is the Father, than he has certain rights. This is sufficent for him to prove his intent.

    Lets not talk on issues we know little about.

    This law is prevalent in almost all Common Law countries.
    "Any relations in a social order will endure if there is infused into them some of that spirit of human sympathy, which qualifies life for immortality." ~ George William Russell

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