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  • #16
    A.M. Reply

    "...he crossed the line in fabricating intel implicating the ISI and PA."

    We disagree in the sum assessment. Most outside Pakistan believe there's a high degree of collusion between elements of the ISI and the afghan taliban. Many inside Pakistan agree.

    You don't. So what's new there?

    In any case, Saleh wouldn't necessarily be aware of every preliminary assessment provided by his sub-lieutenants. Our obligation in any case would be to vett independantly the information provided.

    "How was he 'competent' in the traditional sense of the word..."

    Certainly competence is a tenuous matter that must constantly be pursued by every professional service-C.I.A, MI6...even the ISI.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by S2 View Post
      "...he crossed the line in fabricating intel implicating the ISI and PA."

      We disagree in the sum assessment. Most outside Pakistan believe there's a high degree of collusion between elements of the ISI and the afghan taliban. Many inside Pakistan agree.

      You don't. So what's new there?
      'Most' also base those opinions on the propaganda generated in the garb of 'field intelligence reports' prepared by Afghan and US intelligence, as presented in the wikileaks disclosures' that even many US officials argued were unsubstantiated and unverified, and in some cases verifiably wrong.

      In any case, Saleh wouldn't necessarily be aware of every preliminary assessment provided by his sub-lieutenants. Our obligation in any case would be to vett independantly the information provided.
      He was in charge of the organization, and therefore takes responsibility for the fact that there was such a widespread program of fabricating intelligence implicating the ISI/PA.
      Certainly competence is a tenuous matter that must constantly be pursued by every professional service-C.I.A, MI6...even the ISI.
      Agreed.
      Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
      https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

      Comment


      • #18
        "We have been exposed to a lot of weapons, it is not very difficult to resort to fighting and create influence," he said.
        Isn't that technically a call to violence against the 'legitimately elected government' (even with voter fraud taken into account, Karzai won the most votes), and therefore potentially a reason for arrest and imprisonment?
        Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
        https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

        Comment


        • #19
          A.M. Reply

          "'Most' also base those opinions on the propaganda generated in the garb of 'field intelligence reports' prepared by Afghan and US intelligence..."

          Unnecessary even if true. That, btw, is highly questionable although suiting your narrative.

          Mine personally is based upon four accountings having nothing to do with Afghan intel- 1.) Ahmad Mukhtar's account of destroying the Quetta Shura on Dec. 9, 2009 heretofore unmentioned nor acknowledged by your government, 2.) David Rohde's accounts of his kidnapping and personally accompanied travels courtesy of the Haqqani family through FATAville, 3.) David Sanger's interesting account of Gilani's meeting with George Bush

          Obama's Worst Pakistan Nightmare-New York Times Magazine Jan. 9, 2009

          "...Washington’s sanguinity was not increased when Pakistan’s new prime minister, Yousaf Raza Gilani, arrived in Washington over the summer for what turned out to be a disastrous first visit. Gilani, as the country’s first civilian leader in more than a decade, was under huge pressure to show he could bring the intelligence agency, and the country, under control. He couldn’t — a brief effort to force the ISI to report to the civilian leadership was quashed — but he thought he had better show up with a gift for President Bush.

          Gilani wanted to tell Bush that he had sent forces into the tribal areas to clean out a major madrassa where hard-line ideology and intolerance were part of the daily curriculum. There were roughly 25,000 such private Islamic schools around Pakistan, though only a small number of them regularly bred young terrorists. The one he decided to target was run by the Haqqani faction of Islamic militants, one of the most powerful in the tribal areas.

          Though Gilani never knew it, Bush was aware of this gift in advance. The National Security Agency had picked up intercepts indicating that a Pakistani unit warned the leadership of the school about what was coming before carrying out its raid. “They must have called 1-800-HAQQANI,” said one person who was familiar with the intercepted conversation. According to another, the account of the warning sent to the school was almost comic. “It was something like, ‘Hey, we’re going to hit your place in a few days, so if anyone important is there, you might want to tell them to scram.’ ”

          When the “attack” on the madrassa came, the Pakistani forces grabbed a few guns and hauled away a few teenagers. Sure enough, a few days later Gilani showed up in the Oval Office and conveyed the wonderful news to Bush: the great crackdown on the madrassas had begun. The officials in the room — Bush; his national security adviser, Stephen Hadley; and others — did not want to confront Gilani with the evidence that the school had been warned. That would have required revealing sensitive intercepts, and they judged, according to participants in the discussion, that Gilani was both incapable of keeping a secret and incapable of cracking down on his military and intelligence units. Indeed, Gilani may not even have been aware that his gift was a charade: Bush and Hadley may well have known more about the military’s actions than the prime minister himself."


          and, 4.) the arrest of Nasiruddin Haqqani-

          Security Council Committee established pursuant to resolution 1267 (1999) concerning Al-Qaida and the Taliban and Associated Individuals and EntitiesU.N. Security Council Committee July 20, 2010

          "TI.H.146.10. NASIRUDDIN HAQQANI

          Date on which the narrative summary became available on the Committee’s website: 20 July 2010

          Nasiruddin Haqqani was listed on 20 July 2010 pursuant to paragraph 2 of resolution 1904 (2009) as being associated with Al-Qaida, Usama bin Laden or the Taliban for “participating in the financing, planning, facilitating, preparing, or perpetrating of acts or activities by, in conjunction with, under the name of, on behalf of, or in support of”, “recruiting for” or “otherwise supporting acts or activities of” the Taliban and Al-Qaida (QE.A.4.01).

          Additional information:

          The Haqqani Network is a Taliban-affiliated group of militants that operates from North Waziristan Agency in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas of Pakistan. It has been at the forefront of insurgent activity in Afghanistan, responsible for many high-profile attacks. The Haqqani network leadership consists of the three oldest sons of Jalaluddin Haqqani (TI.H.40.01), one of whom is Nasiruddin Haqqani.

          Nasiruddin Haqqani functions as an emissary for the Haqqani Network and spends much of his time raising money. In 2004, Haqqani traveled to Saudi Arabia with a Taliban associate to raise funds for the Taliban. He also provided funds in 2004 to militants in Afghanistan for the purpose of disrupting the Afghan presidential election. From at least 2005 to 2008, Nasiruddin Haqqani collected funds for the Haqqani Network through various fundraising trips, including during regular travel to the United Arab Emirates in 2007 and through a fundraising trip to another Gulf state in 2008. As of mid-2007, Haqqani reportedly had three main sources of funding: donations from the Gulf region, drug trafficking, and payments from Al-Qaida (QE.A.4.01). In late 2009, Nasiruddin Haqqani received several hundred thousand dollars from Al-Qaida-associated individuals in the Arabian Peninsula to use for Haqqani Network activities.

          Related listed individuals and entities:

          Al-Qaida (QE.A.4.01), listed on 6 October 2001

          Jalaluddin Haqqani (TI.H.40.01), listed on 31 January 2001"


          My understanding is that Nasiruddin Haqqani had been arrested and released previously by Pakistani security authorities. Perhaps you might know if this is true?

          And, lest we forget, the arrest and disappearance of Mullah Baradar inside Pakistan just over a year ago. Rumor has it he's been subsequently released by Pakistani authorities to facilitate negotiations with the afghan taliban but this, of course, is impossible to verify.

          In any case, there's plenty of information out there suggesting acts of omission or commission regarding ties within Pakistan between elements of your security agencies and the afghan taliban. Certainly, the latest brouhaha regarding the killing of Col. Imam by Hakimullah Mehsud despite pressure from Sirijuddin Haqqani suggests this possibility.

          Of course, the mere presence of Omar, Sirijuddin Haqqani, his father and other associates within FATAville is, by itself, inexplicable to a government and citizenry so ostensibly obsessed with issues of sovereignty.
          Last edited by S2; 06 May 11,, 23:41.
          "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
          "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
            Isn't that technically a call to violence against the 'legitimately elected government' (even with voter fraud taken into account, Karzai won the most votes), and therefore potentially a reason for arrest and imprisonment?
            Yes, what a criminal for suggesting such ill thoughts! Reasons for arrest and imprisonment! I'm holding my breath here for Pakistan to lead by example; go grab Haqqani!
            Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
            -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by S2 View Post
              "'Most' also base those opinions on the propaganda generated in the garb of 'field intelligence reports' prepared by Afghan and US intelligence..."

              Unnecessary even if true. That, btw, is highly questionable although suiting your narrative.
              Highly questionable? Not at all - those were the opinions of multiple US military and intelligence sources interviewed regarding the wikileaks intelligence field reports, and Michael Semple's article in the Guardian provided a first hand account of how security and intelligence officials were giving out instructions to fabricate intelligence reports implicating the ISI/PA.

              Mine personally is based upon four accountings having nothing to do with Afghan intel- 1.) Ahmad Mukhtar's account of destroying the Quetta Shura on Dec. 9, 2009 heretofore unmentioned nor acknowledged by your government,
              Still clinging to that soggy straw are you?

              We discussed that several times, most recently on the WAB on this thread:
              http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/cen...tml#post778292

              His comments in their complete context, as they related to US accusations of Taliban in Quetta, make that pretty clear.

              Responding to another question about allegation of US regarding existence of Taliban Shura in Quetta, he said:
              “We have not any real reason not to believe that.”


              2.) David Rohde's accounts of his kidnapping and personally accompanied travels courtesy of the Haqqani family through FATAville, 3.) David Sanger's interesting account of Gilani's meeting with George Bush

              Obama's Worst Pakistan Nightmare-New York Times Magazine Jan. 9, 2009
              Which suggests nothing about official Pakistani sanction for Haqqani, unlike your own officials acknowledging the presence and location of terrorist leader Bugti under their noses in Kabul.

              "...Washington’s sanguinity was not increased when Pakistan’s new prime minister, Yousaf Raza Gilani, arrived in Washington over the summer for what turned out to be a disastrous first visit. Gilani, as the country’s first civilian leader in more than a decade, was under huge pressure to show he could bring the intelligence agency, and the country, under control. He couldn’t — a brief effort to force the ISI to report to the civilian leadership was quashed — but he thought he had better show up with a gift for President Bush.

              Gilani wanted to tell Bush that he had sent forces into the tribal areas to clean out a major madrassa where hard-line ideology and intolerance were part of the daily curriculum. There were roughly 25,000 such private Islamic schools around Pakistan, though only a small number of them regularly bred young terrorists. The one he decided to target was run by the Haqqani faction of Islamic militants, one of the most powerful in the tribal areas.

              Though Gilani never knew it, Bush was aware of this gift in advance. The National Security Agency had picked up intercepts indicating that a Pakistani unit warned the leadership of the school about what was coming before carrying out its raid. “They must have called 1-800-HAQQANI,” said one person who was familiar with the intercepted conversation. According to another, the account of the warning sent to the school was almost comic. “It was something like, ‘Hey, we’re going to hit your place in a few days, so if anyone important is there, you might want to tell them to scram.’ ”

              When the “attack” on the madrassa came, the Pakistani forces grabbed a few guns and hauled away a few teenagers. Sure enough, a few days later Gilani showed up in the Oval Office and conveyed the wonderful news to Bush: the great crackdown on the madrassas had begun. The officials in the room — Bush; his national security adviser, Stephen Hadley; and others — did not want to confront Gilani with the evidence that the school had been warned. That would have required revealing sensitive intercepts, and they judged, according to participants in the discussion, that Gilani was both incapable of keeping a secret and incapable of cracking down on his military and intelligence units. Indeed, Gilani may not even have been aware that his gift was a charade: Bush and Hadley may well have known more about the military’s actions than the prime minister himself."
              Unsubstantiated speculation and yarn spinning. Where is the intercept?
              and, 4.) the arrest of Nasiruddin Haqqani-
              I am unaware of his release. Was he released?
              And, lest we forget, the arrest and disappearance of Mullah Baradar inside Pakistan just over a year ago. Rumor has it he's been subsequently released by Pakistani authorities to facilitate negotiations with the afghan taliban but this, of course, is impossible to verify.
              So why discuss rumor and speculation on this count? I thought you were trying to establish exactly the opposite in the context of my criticizm of the field reports published by wikileaks?
              Of course, the mere presence of Omar, Sirijuddin Haqqani, his father and other associates within FATAville is, by itself, inexplicable to a government and citizenry so ostensibly obsessed with issues of sovereignty.
              Not inexplicable at all - unlike NATO, Pakistan has significant resource constraints and multiple conventional and unconventional fronts to cater to. We have to prioritize.

              You can criticize Pakistan on what it does or does not do in NW once you manage to 'control' the parts of Eastern Afghanistan that terrorists such as Qari Rehman and Mullah FM are using to carry out attacks against Pakistan.
              Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
              https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                Yes, what a criminal for suggesting such ill thoughts! Reasons for arrest and imprisonment! I'm holding my breath here for Pakistan to lead by example; go grab Haqqani!
                When exactly did Haqqani address a large political rally in Pakistan and advocate in favor of a violent overthrow of the Pakistani government?
                Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                  When exactly did Haqqani address a large political rally in Pakistan and advocate in favor of a violent overthrow of the Pakistani government?
                  Ah sorry, forgot its perfectly legal in Pakistan to export terror and militants to violently overthrow neighbouring governments.

                  Most unfortunate if you still fail to see your duplicity.
                  Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                  -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                    even though he crossed the line in fabricating intel implicating the ISI and PA.
                    Only you believe that.
                    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                    Leibniz

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      A.M. Reply

                      "...those were the opinions of multiple US military and intelligence sources interviewed regarding the wikileaks intelligence field reports..."

                      Vetted then? Most foreign intel reports typically are. The question should properly be posed as which did we act upon and why?

                      "...Still clinging to that soggy straw are you?..."

                      Hardly a strawman. Your defense minister made the initial statement and when queried for elaboration he affirmed his belief. His views were unequivocal-

                      "Responding to another question about allegation of US regarding existence of Taliban Shura in Quetta, he said:We have not any real reason not to believe that.”

                      You appear to genuinely have a problem understanding english or, more likely, remain clinging to your own dissemblances. That isn't unusual.

                      Anybody here will understand Mukhtar's comment and quite likely disagree with your odd view.

                      Here's the NATION's report-

                      "QUETTA (Online) - The government has admitted the existence of Afghan Taliban’s Quetta Shura for the first time, and says it has taken them on.

                      In an exclusive interview with a private TV channel, Federal Defence Minister Ahmad Mukhtar said the security forces have taken on the Quetta Shura and have damaged it to such an extent that it no longer poses any threat.

                      When asked about any arrest, he said: “I am sure the Pakistan army is on job and trying to locate those who are enemies of Pakistan. We have finished them so that they don’t fight with us and create problem for us,” he said.

                      Responding to another question about allegation of US regarding existence of Taliban Shura in Quetta, he said:

                      “We have not any real reason not to believe that.”

                      A recent report by General Stanley McChrystal, the top US commander in Afghanistan, alleged that the top Taliban leadership was in Quetta and that they were masterminding attacks on international forces in Afghanistan. However, until this admission by the Defence Minister the government has so far denied the existence of any Taliban leadership or the Quetta Shura in Balochistan’s capital."


                      Note bold. Even the NATION's editors read this comment as I do.

                      As David Rohde's kidnapping accounts take place in May 2009 they suggest plenty. The date alone suggest that seven and one-half years after 9/11 Haqqani operates undisturbed in Miram Shah and Mir Ali.

                      Bugti is not a concern of our's. He's not on our terror watch list. Haqqani most definitely is. He's also on the world's terror watch list and it's THE U.N.'s position that Haqqani is most definitely inside FATAville.

                      I confess to sad bemusement with your efforts to equivocate Bugti and Rehman with Haqqani. One (Bugti) isn't our issue and the other (Rehman) is most definitely NOT residing in undisturbed sanctuary.

                      Now I must tolerate the belittling and derisive comments about the abilities of our troops on your board. I've never done such with your soldiers nor ever shall. However, to suggest that Rehman is PROTECTED by the United States as you've done elsewhere before your local audience is infuriating given the men who've died in the Korengal, Waygal, Pech and other Kunar/Nuristani valleys.

                      Your troops deserve plenty of respect. They fight against whom they're ordered and at the platoon, company, and battalion levels have NO say in the matter. They do so with great bravery and at great cost by any account.

                      Begin showing the same respect to ours WRT Kunar.

                      You now know that Bugti, btw, is in Switzerland. Use your diplomats' less-than-stellar standing to achieve extradition. Too many consider Bugti to be a leader of a separatist national movement of some legitimacy.

                      Do you find Haqqani to possess legitimate aspirations that should be honored with Pakistani sanctuary? Omar? If so, proudly announce such to the world. The Swiss seem to have no problem.

                      America had no certain knowledge of Bugti's presence in Afghanistan lest Boucher wouldn't have plainly asked Karzai of Bugti's whereabouts. That we did ask indicates our concern for Pakistan.

                      It would certainly seem that Karzai had no intentions of using Bugti as a proxy weapon aimed at Pakistan. Neither his comments nor subsequent actions would suggest as much. Of course, were he to do so it would be completely understandable given the unhindered war Pakistan has permitted the Afghan taliban to make upon the afghan people and his government.

                      Beyond those views of mine, feel free to continue chortling your message. Nobody appears to care.

                      "...Unsubstantiated speculation and yarn spinning. Where is the intercept?..."

                      Sure. David Sanger is long-noted as a yarn specialist. That's how you rise to become the NYT's White House correspondent.

                      Believe what you wish. We can't intercept electronic communcations. Your signal security specialists are as immune from such as your airspace is to covert penetration.

                      "...I am unaware of his release. Was he released?..."

                      I don't believe so. I was asking about something I thought read regarding an earlier arrest and release of Nasiruddin Haqqani. My search didn't reveal such and was asking if you might recall.

                      "...So why discuss rumor and speculation on this [release of Mullah Baradar] count?..."

                      So he's still inside Pakistan where he was found?;)

                      "...Not inexplicable at all - unlike NATO, Pakistan has significant resource constraints..."

                      Oh we've got constraints measuring 6,000 miles. Further, Pakistan faces the imperative of an afghan taliban invasion back in late 2001. Our borders weren't violated in 2001 by a defeated Afghan taliban army and government. Pakistan's prized sovereignty, however, has been threatened ever since. What could take precedent now or, worse, between 2002-2008 before the TTP reared their head?

                      "...and multiple conventional and unconventional fronts to cater to..."

                      Your one conventional front is catered...in extremis. All may be quiet on the eastern front but when it's the raison d'etre of your army it trumps all. Nevermind the real war fought daily in your west or the distinction made with the "good" cousins of those very real combatants.

                      "...We have to prioritize..."

                      Evidently...ad nauseum et infinitum.

                      "You can criticize Pakistan on what it does or does not do in NW once you manage to 'control' the parts of Eastern Afghanistan that terrorists such as Qari Rehman and Mullah FM are using to carry out attacks against Pakistan."

                      Just so you recognize Rehman exists tenuously on contested lands. More than Haqqani needs to say. If we controlled eastern Afghanistan, moreover, we'd not care what form of pestilence you permitted on your soil. Therein lies the crux of the matter.
                      Last edited by S2; 07 May 11,, 03:55.
                      "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                      "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                        Only you believe that.
                        No, as I have already pointed out to S2.
                        Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                        https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                          No, as I have already pointed out to S2.
                          Sorry, let me rephrase that, only you believe that on this forum. I've read PakDef and am aware you have your admirers there.
                          In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                          Leibniz

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                            Ah sorry, forgot its perfectly legal in Pakistan to export terror and militants to violently overthrow neighbouring governments.

                            Most unfortunate if you still fail to see your duplicity.
                            As an Indian, there really isn't any room for you to criticize Pakistan on that front, given the fact that India did just that in Junagadh, Baluchistan and East Pakistan and Indian support for the LTTE in Sri Lanka. The US did much the same with its own interventions via proxies in Latin America and Asia.

                            In any case, I am unaware of any current Pakistani policy that fits your allegations here.
                            Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                            https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                              Sorry, let me rephrase that, only you believe that on this forum. I've read PakDef and am aware you have your admirers there.
                              I was not referring to any 'admirers' on Pakistani defence fora.
                              Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                              https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                S2

                                Aimed Mukhtar contradicts himself in the same statement on the Quest Shura. You know as well as I do that the first part of his statement was in the context of threats to Pakistan, as he clearly states, which meant he was likely referring to the TTP and got the terms mixed up. He is unequivocal in refuting Western allegations about a Shura in Quetta after that. Does not take a genius to figure that out, but I understand your reluctance to let this soggy straw go, since you have nothing else.

                                As for Anger and his claims, he is yet another US establishment pig, whose career is largely owed to his 'contacts' within the establishment, and his willingness to parrot and propagate their propaganda to influence public opinion with respect to foreign policy, much like the ISI is alleged to be doing through certain journalists and TV anchors in the Pakistani media. btw, I am not questioning the ability of the US to intercept communications, I am asking for the intercept to establish its veracity, and for the PA to be able to do so. Without the actual intercept, Sanger has said nothing verifiable.
                                Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                                https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                                Comment

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