Osama Bin Laden is dead and his corpse is in US hands.

[Dago]

AM, this might be the first time seeing this document, and being aware of your Governments complicity - so please go over it carefully. Simply provides and outlines more support than your analogy and assertion of "diplomatic exchange" and making it sound like you were in acting like every other country in the World. Members of this board, are not as stupid as to think your Government had no involvement in Afghanistan and make it sound like it was comparable to every other country in the World. This is nonfactual. And would call on your lack of any historical knowledge. Granted, you may be young and this may be past your generation, but this is no excuse for ignorance.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB227/17.pdf

Excerpts

".."Pakistan's ISI is heavily involved in Afghanistan,"

"...these Frontier Corps elements are utilized in command and control; training; and when necessary - combat. Elements of Pakistan's regular army force are not used because the army is predominantly Punjabi, who have different features as compared to the Pashtun and other Afghan tribes."

"...is supplying the Taliban forces with munitions, fuel, and food. The Pakistan Interservice Intelligence Directorate is using a private sector transportation company to funnel supplies into Afghanistan and to the Taliban forces."

[Dago]

"Apparently company size elements from the Frontier corps are used almost exclusively across the border. Because the composition of Frontier corps is totally Pashtun these individuals easily blend in with the Afghan pashtun population. These Frontier corps elements are utilized in command and control, training, and when necessary combat."

- The officers are pashtun, Regular Army officers.
- Consolidated units which have personal have served together throughout there service can be utilized.
- They are well trained and are particularly for this type of scenario.


Colonel consul General in Harat.
Major consul General in Kandahar.
Brigadier visits Afghanistan weekly.
LTG Ullah Khan Governor Of Balochistan monitors/coordinates all Pakistan activites in Kabul, Kandahar, Herat provinces

[antimony]

Of course I was being tongue in cheek, but my point was that this 'gut instinct' thing, without any credible evidence backing it, tends to lead to a lot of fanciful conspiracy theories, such as the one around 9/11. Skeptics can point to a lot of circumstantial evidence and the 'might of the CIA and US military' to argue that the official version of events cannot be true. So lets stick with facts and evidence.

Unless that particular neighborhood was meant to be scrutinized fairly extensively, and wasn't can a case of incompetence be made. And only if that neighborhood was supposed to be scrutinized carefully, and was scrutinized, but this house was inexplicably ignored, can one argue complicity.

AM,

How about this? This house was obviously located within the Abottabad Cantonment area.

For those not used to this term, a cantonment area within the context of South Asia is a municipal area controlled and managed by the military within a garrisson town. So the army manages the services usually provided by a civilian municipal board and also collects the taxes from residents within the area.

This means that the municipal services for this house, as well as local property tax collection would be done by the Pakistani Army through its Cantonment board administration.

I can understand the PA not knowing about any random house, but are you saying they would not know anything about a fairly large property that is sitting within their own administrative area and for which they are responsible for municipal services and taxes?

[calass]

More information on the stealth helicopters used...if the Pakistanis were informed as some here claim,they went to some extraordinary lengths to get radar evading helos involved for no reason.

Mission helo was secret stealth Black Hawk - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times

[Double Edge]

It is too early for the specifics to surface but conversations with several sources in Washington and Pakistan point only to the deep mistrust that the US has had vis-à-vis Pakistan. There was no deal initiated by General Shuja Pasha to ‘trade in’ OBL for a bigger Pakistani role in Afghanistan. On the contrary, in response to the chest thumping by the Pakistani security establishment and its ultra right-wing political acolytes, they were confronted with damning evidence about the Haqqani network and possibly the Quetta Shura, while the OBL lead was not shared.

Interesting. But it does not say how the US came to know the approximate location of OBL. Was it only the courier's 60 sec call that did it. Then it implies the US got lucky zeroing in on OBL and the hosts had to look the other way.

One wonders if the Pakistani brass would still be able to say that they do not know the whereabouts of Mullah Omar.

Indeed and acting against the Haqqani network.

A window of opportunity perhaps still exists for Pakistan to make a clean break with the past but its incoherent blame-game and constantly changing story says otherwise. The Pakistani establishment has given the world very little reason to trust it without verifying — unless, of course, another hornet is to be missed hiding near a major nest.

All depends on how much pressure can be brought to bear on the Pak army. What are the options. They can stil refuse to cooperate and say 'we don't know'.

[Julie]

Well, it was a brilliant location choice by obl, no one expected him there. But given that OBL had completely dropped off everyone's radar until his courier made the mistake of using a cell phone, why blame Pakistan alone for not detecting him?

Please answer my question in post #834.

Completely aside from the neighborhood discussion, why are all known hunted terrorists found residing in Pakistan? I mean, is it the scenery/landscape or what?

Your personal opinion please.

[Dago]

Well, it was a brilliant location choice by obl, no one expected him there. But given that OBL had completely dropped off everyone's radar until his courier made the mistake of using a cell phone, why blame Pakistan alone for not detecting him?

Because he is in your country? And waging a war from your soil, so what is the solution? Hold Pakistani's accountable? The close ties your ISI have had over the years. If a terrorist, steal nuclear material from your country, then what can be done? It's not your fault though right, just other citizens of other nations feel the effect. And hey! Your doing the best you can! That's all the counts right? KUDOS to Pakistan. LMFAO. Again, right dead, in the middle of a garrison town.

[citanon]

Signs Point to Pakistan Link to bin Laden - WSJ.com

Signs Point to Pakistan Link
U.S. Probe of Aid to bin Laden Likely to Focus on Islamabad's Military and Spy Services
By ADAM ENTOUS, JULIAN E. BARNES and MATTHEW ROSENBERG

U.S. and European intelligence officials increasingly believe active or retired Pakistani military or intelligence officials provided some measure of aid to al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, allowing him to stay hidden in a large compound just a mile from an elite military academy.

The suspicions cast light on where the U.S. is expected to focus as it investigates who might have helped bin Laden hide in plain sight in Abbottabad, a town about 40 miles from the capital Islamabad.

Two senior U.S. officials and a high-level European military-intelligence official who have direct working knowledge of Pakistan's military intelligence agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate, say similar elements linked to the ISI have aided other Pakistan-based terror groups, the Haqqani militant network and Lashkar-e-Taiba.

"There's no doubt he was protected by some in the ISI," the European official said of bin Laden. The officials say they believe these ISI elements include some current and former intelligence and military operatives with long-standing ties to al Qaeda and other militant groups.

The officials didn't offer specific evidence, but pointed to the town's proximity to the capital and its high concentration of current and former military and intelligence officers. They said aid likely included intelligence tips to help keep bin Laden ahead of his American pursuers.

But others in both the U.S. and Pakistan have cast doubt on whether Abbottabad would have provided a more hospitable refuge than other towns, or whether officials would have reason to believe bin Laden could be hiding there.

Details continued to emerge Wednesday that added to questions about what officials may have known. Abbottabad had come to the notice of Pakistani intelligence as a suspected hiding place for al Qaeda leaders as long ago as 2003, and was the focus of searches for top al Qaeda figures in years since.

In 2005, the man who was later identified as bin Laden's courier acquired the property in Abbottabad on which the compound was built, U.S. officials said Wednesday. The name he used, Arshad Khan, is the local alias he employed. It was this courier who, nearly six years later, eventually led the U.S. to the compound.

Pakistan denies it knew of bin Laden's whereabouts or sheltered him. Pakistani officials point out they passed the information about the 2003 search to their American counterparts.

U.S. officials say intelligence cooperation with Pakistan has helped the U.S. carry out many critical operations but that the intelligence used in the raid that killed bin Laden early Monday local time came from American sources and intelligence.

In classified congressional briefings this week on the U.S. operation that killed bin Laden, senior national-security officials have told lawmakers they suspected Pakistan wasn't as forthcoming as it could have been about its intelligence on bin Laden, an official briefed on the exchanges said.

They also told lawmakers they were looking for evidence that elements within the ISI and the army played a direct or indirect role in protecting the al Qaeda leader, several officials said. Helping the effort will be the cache of computers, storage drives and other materials taken from bin Laden's residence.

The aftermath of the raid that killed bin Laden could have sweeping implications for the quickly deteriorating U.S. relationship with Pakistan—a longtime bulwark in U.S. efforts to fight terrorist groups—and on the U.S.-led war in neighboring Afghanistan.

Militants use havens in Pakistan to stage attacks against U.S. forces in Afghanistan. U.S. officials believe the war effort hinges on Pakistan doing far more to close the havens. The U.S. administration also worries what will happen to the tottering nuclear state if its economy collapses, as U.S. lawmakers challenge ongoing aid to Pakistan.

It remains unclear what could motivate those within Pakistan to help shelter bin Laden, and will remain so until the U.S. and European suspicions take clearer form. For a rogue element, sympathy with bin Laden could be enough. If more senior officials are implicated, that would suggest a desire to pacify radical elements who might otherwise turn their attention on Pakistani ruling elites.

Cooperation between the ISI and CIA has long ebbed and flowed, but had worsened even before the bin Laden discovery, largely triggered by the arrest earlier this year of a CIA contractor for shooting two Pakistanis. "Pakistan became paranoid about the agency's presence," a U.S. official said.

Underlining its displeasure, the ISI has this year moved to curtail the CIA's presence in the country, reflecting Pakistani fears that the U.S. spy agency had build up an extensive network of agents and informants to allow it to carry out unilateral operations against militants behind the ISI's back.

An ISI official Wednesday said Pakistani authorities in no way provided any support or cover for bin Laden in Pakistan, something everyone would have known was clearly unacceptable to the U.S.

"We need to have America on our side," the official said. "The best way to do it was to get bin Laden and hand him over."

One former intelligence official with extensive experience in Pakistan said the ISI would have responded immediately when the compound came under attack if it had been his protector.

U.S. officials say they don't believe that Pakistan's Army chief, Gen. Ashfaq Kayani, or ISI head, Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha, had knowledge of bin Laden's whereabouts or of secret assistance that may have been provided to him.

"The United States does not have any indication at this point that there was official Pakistani knowledge of bin Laden's whereabouts," a U.S. official said.

Neither Gen. Kayani nor Lt. Gen. Pasha were informed about the U.S. intelligence or the planned raid until after the U.S. helicopter-borne Navy Seal team carrying bin Laden's body exited Pakistani airspace, U.S. officials say.

Officials and experts are divided about whether Gen. Kayani and Lt. Gen. Pasha are aware of the activities of ISI personnel who may be based in isolated tribal outposts and have had longstanding ties with al Qaeda and the Taliban leaders.
More on bin Laden

The U.S. primarily deals with the ISI division responsible for counterterrorism, a former senior intelligence official said. That means ISI officials who work with the U.S. would be separate from ISI officials working with militants.

One senior U.S. defense official described the ISI as "highly compartmentalized," allowing networks of current and former operatives to act with relative autonomy and without the knowledge of their superiors.

U.S. officials say they have evidence that the Haqqani network, a militant group based in Pakistan's mountainous North Waziristan region, receives material support from the ISI in executing attacks against U.S. and North Atlantic Treaty Organization forces in neighboring Afghanistan. Lashkar-e-Taiba carried out a deadly 2008 assault in Mumbai.

In Abbottabad in December 2003, Pakistani intelligence officials mounted an unsuccessful strike to capture Abu Faraj al-Libbi, al Qaeda's No. 3, from a safe house in the town, according to Asad Munir, a former ISI official who oversaw the area at the time. In 2004, according to local news reports, Pakistani authorities arrested an Egyptian al Qaeda operative using Abbottabad as a base to plan attacks.

Abbottabad's recent history raises the question of whether the U.S. missed earlier signs that could have identified the town as an al Qaeda sanctuary. A senior U.S. official said Abbottabad was "a place we always looked" because "we always figured that Osama bin Laden would not be in a cave."

But others noted that it was one of many cities where al Qaeda and Taliban militants have hid, and one where Islamists wouldn't have a particularly sympathetic base.

"Abbottabad had never been a hotbed of Islamic fervor," said a former senior intelligence official. "It's never been the center of Islamic extremist activity or al Qaeda activity. There have been al Qaeda figures passing through from time to time."

Pakistani officials have been tight-lipped about what they found in the compound after American forces left. Pakistan has released no official accounting of how many people were taken into custody or how many bodies were found. Nor have military officials explained why soldiers didn't arrive on the scene of a 40-minute firefight that took place on the doorstep of Pakistan's military academy.

There are some conflicts between the U.S. and Pakistani accounts. U.S. officials say they left four bodies behind: three men and one woman. A Pakistani official said all four were men.

The Pakistani official said bin Laden's 12-year-old daughter, who is among those in Pakistani custody, told authorities the Americans took two people when they left, including bin Laden. U.S. officials say bin Laden's body was the only one removed from the scene.
—Siobhan Gorman, Jay Solomon and Tom Wright contributed to this article.

Write to Matthew Rosenberg at [email protected]

[Dreadnought]

Uh he did that years ago:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/mem...ste-howdy.html

You will have to forgive me Tarek as many members have mentioned this in the past few days and I have been looking for an update. Thanks

[InExile]

Jumping to conclusions

I thought this was a good article from a conservative source. It is known that elements within the Pakistan military , intelligence have been supporting terrorists in the past. However as this article points out; these elements do not represent all Pakistanis, and probably do not represent the civilian establishment. I dont think I can say the same for the military establishment though.

Eunomia » Jumping To Conclusions

So probably in essence nothing has really changed; though it is expected for emotions to run high, due to the Bin Laden himself being killed.

[gunnut]

More information on the stealth helicopters used...if the Pakistanis were informed as some here claim,they went to some extraordinary lengths to get radar evading helos involved for no reason.

Mission helo was secret stealth Black Hawk - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times

I'm thinking the opposite. These are special helos designed to reflect as much radar wave as possible. In fact, they might have beacons on them to broadcast their location. This way we can make sure the Pakistanis knew we were coming and where we are exactly so they don't mistaken us for an Indian plot to secretly drop bootlegged Bollywood musicals in the dreary military academy next door to bin Laden.

[notorious_eagle]

ok, good point, but that means obl lived under their noses, for years , a man who has killed their brothers and sisters, and Pakistani military had no idea whatsoever?????

It appears that they didn't have the idea where OBL was living, good job on OBL's part that he did a very good job of staying under the radar. The notion of Pakistan's security forces sheltering OBL is absurd at best, what possibly can Pakistan gain by sheltering the world's most wanted man. Whatever sympathies that lower level soldiers or mid level officers had for the Taliban or AQ was all gone when they started attacking Army Check Posts, Suicide Bomb Blasts at GHQ, ISI's Headquarters and most notably the beheadings of our soldiers. After that PA was out for blood, the operation in Swat should be evidence enough that PA showed no quarter to these scums. Thus, this argument is extremely idiotic that OBL was being sheltered by ISI, it just makes me laugh how people reach this conclusion.

[Dreadnought]

Is thinking that before another dime in aid is paid its time to fess up and disclose info on these these groups and who supports them and their locations if not then no aid, the government is crippled and the forces who these groups attack bomb with impunity the tribals and other regions. Nice to have choices huh?

Trust me, IMO, Pressure has yet to be applied.

[notorious_eagle]

Is thinking that before another dime in aid is paid its time to fess up and disclose info on these these groups and who supports them and their locations if not then no aid, the government is crippled and the forces who these groups attack bomb with impunity the tribals and other regions. Nice to have choices huh?

Trust me, IMO, Pressure has yet to be applied.

I beg off you, please take this aid away from us. Instead of helping us it is literally crippling us, this WOT has brought us nothing but misery. Its a good time that Pakistan should start planning its exit strategy, $60 billion in damages and 30 000 people dead for a war that was never ours to begin with.

[Julie]

I beg off you, please take this aid away from us. Instead of helping us it is literally crippling us, this WOT has brought us nothing but misery. Its a good time that Pakistan should start planning its exit strategy, $60 billion in damages and 30 000 people dead for a war that was never ours to begin with.

Watch what you wish for.... cuz I'm all for it. ;) 1.3 billion a year we can spend at home.