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  • Citizen or Agent of the State

    A citizen can question policy and ought to.

    An agent of the state is charged with enforcing policy. They follow orders and thats it.

    What if you get sent to a war you are opposed or more simply ordered to do something you object to. Do you have a choice or will you face a disciplinary hearing. Would imagine this might be worse in countries where you get drafted like say Israel. This is an instance where being a citizen & agent of the state can at times conflict. To be fair if ppl have leeway here (how much is a good question) then your not going to have a coherent unit. otoh, if you have a unit where the ppl are not 100% in it then performance will suffer and could put lives at risk. Taken to an extreme you have a Bradley Manning or HMS Astute (admittedly this was more to do with discipline).

    Is it as simple as not getting involved in politics at all and just doing your job. You could say that its good form as it makes one non partisan and neutral.

    How does a soldier reconcile these two sometimes opposing forces.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 28 Apr 11,, 00:31.

  • #2
    In the IDF, if a soldier is given an order that directly goes against the law (anything from shooting children to stealing ammo from a different unit's bunker), he must disobey that order immediately or be considered an accomplice. If a soldier is given an order that he perceives as wrong but doesn't break any laws ("This is my rifle, this is my gun" scene from Full Metal Jacket), he must fill that order and only afterwards he may complain to a superior rank if he wishes.

    If a soldier decides that he doesn't want to do something out of conscientious reasons, then he is disobeying a direct order and must face the consequences. For that reason, IDF soldiers are not allowed to show any sort of political affiliation, even something as small as a political bumper sticker on a locker on base
    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

    Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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    • #3
      In the US military, you do not have to obey an illegal order. You may end up with some explaining to do, but at least your conscience will be clear and if, in fact, the order was illegal, you will have the Uniform Code of Military Justice on your side.

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      • #4
        In Germany you can refuse an order based upon:

        - considering it a violation of someone's personal dignity (the supreme constitutional right of all humans on German soil)
        - considering the order to not be in pursuit of duty (i.e. is given for private purposes)
        - assuming following it constitutes a punishable criminal act
        - assuming the person giving the order is not in command of you
        - general conscientious objection upon explaining your line of reasoning (due to the "freedom of conscience" in the constitution)

        The last option is somewhat nebulous, and only appeared in the last ten years after there were soldiers who refused to e.g. deploy in support of any US troops (during Iraq) or in actions not sanctioned by parliament (Tornado missions in support of OEF). The Bundeswehr has issued a four-page guideline for commanding officers on how to deal with such behaviour (i.e. allowing the soldier to explain his line of reasoning before considering punishment).

        A criminal act committed upon following an order can be punished (for the person committing it) if the person recognizes the order as leading to a criminal act or if this is blatantly obvious.
        Last edited by kato; 28 Apr 11,, 23:37.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
          How does a soldier reconcile these two sometimes opposing forces.
          I quit being a soldier.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Red Seven View Post
            In the US military, you do not have to obey an illegal order. You may end up with some explaining to do, but at least your conscience will be clear and if, in fact, the order was illegal, you will have the Uniform Code of Military Justice on your side.
            That is absolutely correct, however, the outcome is usually not fair or pleasant. In my case, I have a clear conscience and that is what really matters today. Of course, the military today is a very different place than 23 years ago.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
              That is absolutely correct, however, the outcome is usually not fair or pleasant.

              I completely agree. And the opposite is equally true. With restrictive ROE and delicate politics the warfighter's duty is not always clear. Doing that duty as you understand it can sometimes get you in a world of s**t. And when that happens, rather than support you, your superiors may throw you to the wolves. Chessani is one example.

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