Evaluation of strategies.

[bigross86]

Israel has Super Shermans up against T-55, T-62

[zraver]

BR, I think the IDF has modified centurions, the super shermans should be reserve only by 73. The IDF also has a number of upgunned m48 pattons and m60a0 pattons. The pattons have a major failing in the highly flammable cherry juice the use. Also the m60 turret is flawed.

[zraver]

Wis, the syrians do not have NVG, they have active IR emitters on the 55 abd 62 tanks. This light can be detected at close range. Also some IDF tanks have equivalent technology. Although not the units stationed on the Golan.

[bigross86]

According to the OOB I found some of the reserve units had Super Shermans, and from what I remember Super Shermans were in service until the 80's or so.

Some of the Syrians did have NVG's, but the majority did use IR. The IDF armor on the Golan did not have either

[zraver]

According to the OOB I found some of the reserve units had Super Shermans, and from what I remember Super Shermans were in service until the 80's or so.

Some of the Syrians did have NVG's, but the majority did use IR. The IDF armor on the Golan did not have either

BR, in 73 NVG or passive light amplification tech was less than 10 years old. The Soviets did not poesses the tech before the 70's at the earliest.

[bigross86]

BR, in 73 NVG or passive light amplification tech was less than 10 years old. The Soviets did not poesses the tech before the 70's at the earliest.

NVG's have been around since the German Zielgerät 1229/Vampir and the American M1/M3, both during WWII. AEG started developing NVG's in 1935. I remember reading a report that there were NVG's found in some of the burnt out tanks, so I'm pretty sure Syria had NVG's as well as IR. Considering that Syria and Egypt were getting the best the USSR had to offer, including MiG-21's, SA-6's and AT-3's, it's not inconceivable that they would have NVG's as well

[USSWisconsin]

Do all the IDF Centurians have 105mm L7 guns?
Are they the diesel powered Sho't Kal versions?
How about the Jordanian Cent's are they 20 pdr versions?

Do the Syrians have any older WWII surplus armor?

[zraver]

NVG's have been around since the German Zielgerät 1229/Vampir and the American M1/M3, both during WWII. AEG started developing NVG's in 1935. I remember reading a report that there were NVG's found in some of the burnt out tanks, so I'm pretty sure Syria had NVG's as well as IR. Considering that Syria and Egypt were getting the best the USSR had to offer, including MiG-21's, SA-6's and AT-3's, it's not inconceivable that they would have NVG's as well

Those are active IR systems not passive light amplification. In rt he case of the panther g uhu and the m1 n m3 n I assume the vampire they all required an external emission source. For example the other part of the panther g uhu was an sdzkf 251 uhu emitter viehicle.

[zraver]

Do all the IDF Centurians have 105mm L7 guns?
Are they the diesel powered Sho't Kal versions?
How about the Jordanian Cent's are they 20 pdr versions?

Do the Syrians have any older WWII surplus armor?

The syrians have t34-85 n is-3 pikes. I think all the mk-iv panzers were lost in 67.

[bigross86]

Zraver, I think if you look back at the original post, you'll notice I said that the Syrians have NVG's and IR sights. I never said that they had passive light amplification NVG's, but NVG's in general, so this entire conversations is really quite moot.

Whiskey, the best info I can find shows that the Shot Kal entered service in 1970, and by 1974 all Centurions were upgraded to Shot Kals.

From what I can tell, most, if not all Israeli Centurions have the 105mm L7

Unfortunately the best source of info I can find on the Jordanian Cents claims they are Mk-V/VII 20PDR/84.6mm. The problem with that is that the Mk-V/2 was upgunned from 20pdr to 105mm. I really have no idea which variant they used

[bigross86]

The Syrians and Iraqis have T-34/85's. The Syrians also use WWII SU-100M artillery pieces. Egypt had one regiment of IS-3's, but I can't find any sources claiming the Syrians had any

[1979]

Best and most accurate image I could find, gives you locations of both Syrian and Israeli armor, plus Syrian airborne assault.

looking at the map it seams that initialy the 36th Mechanised division (Eytan) held the Golan heigts on her on , against 3 syrian divisions.
also the syrian 9th division trust is directed at the junction beetwen the 7th and 188th israeli brigades.

[Mihais]

The Syrians planned to use the 2 armored divisions as exploitation force.Initially only one of them was to be engaged.1st AD was to be used between the 5th and 9th Inf,while the 3d was to be introduced if only the 7th penetration succeeded.As it turned out it went all to dust.
Ugda Laner had a higher proportions of Super Shermans and if IIRC they performed well during the counter attack,but the first unit to arrive were equipped with Centurions.

While I read quite a bit about that battle,there is an aspect that nobody seemed to touch.What the heck was the Syrian infantry doing?All I could get was that some commandos tried to ambush Israeli reserves and some attempts to hold Laner at bay.But Israeli commanders,like Ben Gal and Kahalani were very worried about the possibility of Syrian infantry infiltrating en masse among them during the night.That would have collapsed the Israeli defense and cleared the way for the armored units.For some reason,it didn't happen.They seemed to have done absolutely nothing.In contrast,the Egyptian infantry was both very active and efficient.So we have apparently a paradox.The rugged Golan was an armored battle,while the open Sinai was a tank vs. infantry battle.Initially the infantry won.

[bigross86]

The Syrian commando captured the IDF outpost on Mt. Hermon. There were a couple infantry attacks during the night, but the Golan Heights are a lot smaller than the Sinai, and considering all the firepower being used, infantry was extremely vulnerable. Seeing as how the Syrians had IR and the IDF didn't, the Syrians definitely had the advantage.

However, the interesting thing is not to analyze what happened, but we're waiting to see how Wayfarer (or anyone else for that matter) would run it

[Wayfarer]

One last question Bigross, do we have a rough figure on the amount of SPG vs towed artillery (even a ratio) of the Syrian artillery brigades?