History of Manchu China

[astralis]

rollingwave,

And yeah, Cixi was sorta like the Nicholas II of the Qing, a person that was clearly not incompetent but was dealt a horrible hand that there was really no way to play out of. If it weren't for her the Qing probably ended around the 1880s anyway.

what i always found funny was how up until she was chased out of peking in the Boxer Rebellion she was fairly anti-reformist (far from the worst from the extremist faction, but still quite conservative).

then when she came back, she became more reformist than the guangxu emperor. go figure.

the problem with cixi was that she was competent within the old model but could never figure out, until it was too late, what china really needed. had she implemented half the reforms she made after the Boxer Rebellion twenty years earlier, there'd be a pretty good likelihood, i think, that Qing China would still be alive as a constitutional monarchy today.

[gunnut]

What else, Capitalism.

Actually it was uneven trade, protectionism, anti-capitalism.

[astralis]

gunnut,

Actually it was uneven trade, protectionism, anti-capitalism.

the funny thing is that there was a lively debate in the UK when things grew to a head before the Opium War. liberals decried it as forced drug-dealing, conservatives said it was a free trade issue.

of course even after the british and the french forced the chinese to open up comprehensively at the end of the Second Opium War/"Arrow War", trade with China STILL remained flat. that argues that it wasn't really the chinese government blocking trade as it was that there was simply very little demand for the goods the British/French were hawking.

[kyli]

Actually it was uneven trade, protectionism, anti-capitalism.

It is uneven trade alright, but it is not protectionism or anti-capitalism. It is isolationism. At that time China was self sufficient. You couldn't force people to buy stuffs that they don't want.

More importantly, British or French didn't even need to trade with the Chinese. Tea, porcelain or Silk is not essential to them. The free trade issue was just human greed and covered up for expansionism. They wanted markets. If they couldn't find one, then they crack open one.

Looking at how British, French and Americans conducted their trades in 1800s to early 1900s. They were anything but free trade.

[gunnut]

It is uneven trade alright, but it is not protectionism or anti-capitalism. It is isolationism. At that time China was self sufficient. You couldn't force people to buy stuffs that they don't want.

More importantly, British or French didn't even need to trade with the Chinese. Tea, porcelain or Silk is not essential to them. The free trade issue was just human greed and covered up for expansionism. They wanted markets. If they couldn't find one, then they crack open one.

Looking at how British, French and Americans conducted their trades in 1800s to early 1900s. They were anything but free trade.

So that's by definition NOT capitalism.

[gunnut]

gunnut,



the funny thing is that there was a lively debate in the UK when things grew to a head before the Opium War. liberals decried it as forced drug-dealing, conservatives said it was a free trade issue.

of course even after the british and the french forced the chinese to open up comprehensively at the end of the Second Opium War/"Arrow War", trade with China STILL remained flat. that argues that it wasn't really the chinese government blocking trade as it was that there was simply very little demand for the goods the British/French were hawking.

Or the average Chinese was too poor to afford mechanical toys. Gotta have money before you buy stuff.

[kyli]

So that's by definition NOT capitalism.

They did it in the name of Capitalism. And pure capitalism exists in theory only.
Many of the great materialistic inventions happened between giled age and roaring 20. People would never hesitate to buy items to showoff.

[xinhui]

if we take two steps backward and take a "international" trade occurred during the Ming and Song -- it was capitalism at its pure form with no "government" support. Look at how Singapore came into being where it is now.

[RollingWave]

Or the average Chinese was too poor to afford mechanical toys. Gotta have money before you buy stuff.

FWIW, it's not like the wealthy gentry / officials were lining up to buy those stuff, and mechanical toys wasn't really the primary goods the west was hawking anyway (it was really just a curiocity at best), it was mostly textile related stuff and they really weren't that competitive in the Chinese market with was pretty darn self sufficent in that aspect. (because China's extremely self sufficent in food, thus means it can support a fairly large labor market anyway, which means that even early industrial textile production wasn't really that much ahead of the good ole hand made clothes in China especially after factoring in cost of shipping it half way around the world).

Well there was something else big that they sold... weapons.. though obviously any sane / competent / functioning state will not allot free sale of that.

[Parihaka]

FWIW, it's not like the wealthy gentry / officials were lining up to buy those stuff, and mechanical toys wasn't really the primary goods the west was hawking anyway (it was really just a curiocity at best), it was mostly textile related stuff and they really weren't that competitive in the Chinese market with was pretty darn self sufficent in that aspect. (because China's extremely self sufficent in food, thus means it can support a fairly large labor market anyway, which means that even early industrial textile production wasn't really that much ahead of the good ole hand made clothes in China especially after factoring in cost of shipping it half way around the world).

Well there was something else big that they sold... weapons.. though obviously any sane / competent / functioning state will not allot free sale of that.

Well sort of. The west also had a lot of technology to sell, rail stock, steam engines, looms, pumps etc etc etc. The industrial revolution was for sale just as much as the products of it. It wasn't just opium and Christianity the Chinese govt. was heavily opposed to.

[astralis]

It wasn't just opium and Christianity the Chinese govt. was heavily opposed to.

for perfectly good reasons, too. qing china was heavily overpopulated due to the boom in New World foodstuffs, and wages were at an all-time low.

that not only made imported machines (especially the ones of the early industrial era) non-competitive, but socially dangerous. think of the luddist movement in england, only x100 due to the population densities involved. with the qing government already precariously weak and the green standard army (the old paramilitary/constabulatory force) falling apart...

[kyli]

if we take two steps backward and take a "international" trade occurred during the Ming and Song -- it was capitalism at its pure form with no "government" support. Look at how Singapore came into being where it is now.

They did impose taxes but not restrictions on trades. I am not against free trade, but trade should be promoted but not forced upon.

[Parihaka]

for perfectly good reasons, too. qing china was heavily overpopulated due to the boom in New World foodstuffs, and wages were at an all-time low.

that not only made imported machines (especially the ones of the early industrial era) non-competitive, but socially dangerous. think of the luddist movement in england, only x100 due to the population densities involved. with the qing government already precariously weak and the green standard army (the old paramilitary/constabulatory force) falling apart...

Yep, effectively they were tottering from crisis to crisis, not the ideal time to run up against new and agressive foreign powers. I'm simply trying to expand the schoolbook version of 'the west had nothing but opium to trade in return': they had plenty to trade, but almost all of it, like the new empires themselves, were far to dangerous to the Qing government for them to allow in.

[RollingWave]

Yep, effectively they were tottering from crisis to crisis, not the ideal time to run up against new and agressive foreign powers. I'm simply trying to expand the schoolbook version of 'the west had nothing but opium to trade in return': they had plenty to trade, but almost all of it, like the new empires themselves, were far to dangerous to the Qing government for them to allow in.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but weren't the British very protective of actually exporting machinaries? for example for the longest time skilled machien engineers were forbidden to emigrate to the USA. I don't seem to recall the East Indies company of setting up factory in India either. wasn't the pre-20th century textile industry pretty much a singular pure import raw material from elsewhere into the west, and then the west export finished product elsewhere?

Even if they were open to setting up factories in China, as being pointed out already, the simple fact that the Chinese cottage industry was so relatively efficent / cost competitive meant that there was probably going to be very little real demand for such imports until towards the turn of the 20th century.