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  • #16
    Originally posted by kyli View Post
    For a small island south of China, KMT finally put its act together only until a few decades of ruthless dictatorship. As much as I dislike CCP, I am less fond of KMT and have less faith of this incompetent entity.
    As I recall, the topic of this thread is history of Manchu China, not the merits of the KMT and CCP. That being said, look at bibliography for the wikipedia article for Russo-Manchu conflicts or whatever page it is. It's a good start point. From that, look at those works cited/bibs for those works. I'm sure there's more than enough info available on the topic in those sources.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by ace16807 View Post
      As I recall, the topic of this thread is history of Manchu China, not the merits of the KMT and CCP. That being said, look at bibliography for the wikipedia article for Russo-Manchu conflicts or whatever page it is. It's a good start point. From that, look at those works cited/bibs for those works. I'm sure there's more than enough info available on the topic in those sources.
      It is about history of Manchu China, and Colonel and Rollingwave have already provided some feedback. But these kinds of general information could be found by using goggle, I think some of the members have already pointed this out.

      No more off topic, but I doubt Rollingwave and I have any serious intention to go into discussion of the merits of KMT and CCP. We just want to lash each other for couple of posts, just couple.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by RollingWave View Post
        Heh, the Rus Civilization came pretty close to being ended at the hands of the Mongols (though given the dramatic shift in direction of the Russian civilization after the Tartar yoke, you might as well argue that the real Rus Civilziation was ended when the Mongols sacked Kiev anyway)


        Anyway, Siberia and Machuria needs to be seperated, there is some overlap of the two in terms of terrirtory but when people discuss history involving Siberia it's usually the western portions of it and not the eastern. (which was nearly completely unihabited except it's cross over areas with Manchuria)


        FYI , essentially what you want to write about boils down to..

        Russian Machu Border conflicts
        Treaty of Nerchinsk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
        Treaty of Kyakhta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
        Treaty of Aigun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
        Amur Annexation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

        Essentially, the intial contacts of the Russian with the Qing dynasty resulted in some battles that generally ended more in favor of the Machus, but as the Qing dynasty began to decline and face the threat of imperialist expansions Russia got into the act and was really the biggest winner amongest the Imperial powers great game of China . as their gains were almost all permenant, AND they shed the least blood in achieving the result (basically they just took advantage of the situation and blackmailed the Qing dynasty into most of those later treaties.)

        AND they succeeded in having Mongolia becomming their vassal an independent state

        And they even managed to install a puppet pro Russia government into China after 1949. ;)
        HALLELUJAH!!! :Dancing-Banana:
        I am glad I posted this thread. I did not have the Treaty of Kyakhta. THANKS!!!!
        And thanks for the links and info, I really appreciate your help.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by kyli View Post
          It is about history of Manchu China, and Colonel and Rollingwave have already provided some feedback. But these kinds of general information could be found by using goggle, I think some of the members have already pointed this out.

          No more off topic, but I doubt Rollingwave and I have any serious intention to go into discussion of the merits of KMT and CCP. We just want to lash each other for couple of posts, just couple.
          I did not mind the straying off topic. I enjoyed reading the posts! Very informative.

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          • #20
            To be blunt, these were non-events. Yes, treaties were signed and people died but considering the vast armies of both Empires involved, a clash of few hundreds militarily meant nothing.

            I really have no idea what your prof was trying for but Russia was not defined by her wars in the East, not even the Russo-Japanese War that she lost. Japan became the predominant power in the East because of that war but do not think for one second the Imperial Japanese Army was going to march on Moscow. Militarily speaking, had the Tzar said screw it, fight on, Japan was in a world of hurt. As it was, the Japanese victory was a Phyric victory.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
              To be blunt, these were non-events. Yes, treaties were signed and people died but considering the vast armies of both Empires involved, a clash of few hundreds militarily meant nothing.

              I really have no idea what your prof was trying for but Russia was not defined by her wars in the East, not even the Russo-Japanese War that she lost. Japan became the predominant power in the East because of that war but do not think for one second the Imperial Japanese Army was going to march on Moscow. Militarily speaking, had the Tzar said screw it, fight on, Japan was in a world of hurt. As it was, the Japanese victory was a Phyric victory.
              My professor is focusing on unequal treaties and how they came to be. He wants us to focus, these are his exact instructions: on periods during which Asian countires were largely unable to resist the military pressures from foreign powers as many unequal treaties were signed by those Asian countries after military failure.

              That's why I asked for info on treaties and military conquests. Were there any other treaties imposed on Asian countries other than Russia and the British?

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              • #22
                I know the popular theory is that Qing China signed away the kitchen sink but bear in mind, Qing China never signed away the core of her Empire. Again, when the presence of a few companies of men can dictate the border, no one on either side is really serious. Otherwise, you have a war of 100s of thousands. Which was the case in Vietnam against the French and the French lost that war against the Qing. You have to take those treaties in context. The Qings rather take the loss because it was cheaper than fighting a war but when the loss was greater than a war, the Qings will fight and fight to win, as in the case of Vietnam against the French.

                If you want one cornerstone of this entire theory, then I strongly suggest you concentrate on the Boxer Rebellion. That one single event illustrates completely the failures of the Qing and the domination of the West ... and it was the beginning of the end of the Qings as a government ... and as a culture.
                Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 24 Apr 11,, 03:56.

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                • #23
                  I did cover the Boxer Rebellion in my paper. That one, I am familiar with and did well searching for that info on my own. Actually, everyone in class has that one on their papers. It was sick what the British did to the Chinese with opium.
                  Funny that you mention the conflict between Vietnam and the French. I will be covering that in my paper too. These are the conflicts I am covering so far. Are there any others I have overlooked?

                  I really need a good grade on this paper. It's part of my finals and it will be 50% of my final score.

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                  • #24
                    If I were you, I go the other way. Pick one item, examine the hell out of it and present THAT as the picture of Qing China. Bring other points, ie, ie pressures from the Tai Ping rebellion and Mongol uprisings, and when Qing China finally fell, it was NOT to foreign pressures but internal decent collapsed the entire thing. Three Qing Armies defected. It was Sun Yet-Sen who conquered Qing China, not the US, France, Germany, Japan, Russia.

                    The Unequal Treaties were the sideshow. The real threat was internal. More Qing troops fought and died in the Tai Ping rebellion than all the unequal treaties combined.

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                    • #25
                      You know, that doesn't sound like a bad idea. I started out with a vision of putting together a paper with several mini chapters for each conflict/treaty. But I only have enough for 3 chapters so far and I was hoping for at least 5. Now when I look at it, the paper just doesn't look impressive enough anymore.

                      I am seriously considering your suggestion. I'll bet my professor would be blown away if I did my paper on internal conflicts. Everyone in class is focusing on foreign enemies, because the instructions implied that. Mine would stand out, but it would have to be a damn good paper. I'm pretty confident I can pull this off.

                      Thanks for the excellent idea!

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                      • #26
                        If you want one coherent tight paper, start from the end, the collapse of the Qing. The defection of 3 armies and work your way back as far back as you like to see what contributed to the collapse. There were famines, crop failures, Boxer Rebellion, failure to modernize, bad agricultural practices (instead of storing grain for famines, they gave money to starving area instead which resulted in farmers raising opium cash crops instead of food), and the straws that broke the camel's back, the unequal treaties. Each one of these by themselves were not enough to crash the Qing. After all, they did win the Tai Ping rebellion but combined, it was too much for the Qing to handle.

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                        • #27
                          I want to point that the First Sino-Japanese War had significant contribution to the collapse of the Qing Dynasty. I probably would say that after the First Sino-Japanese War Qing Dynasty's legitimacy of ruling is significantly weakened.

                          Even though Qing Dynasty was able to absorb the losses, Qing never ever recovered from the humiliation. The Treaty of Maguan had altered the mindset of Chinese and foreign powers. Foreign powers have become increasing confidence to extort concessions, and the people of China started to turn their back on Qing and looked for alternatives.

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                          • #28
                            What I'd like to ask is why China didn't turned more like Japan in the sense of maintaining the Imperial institution while searching for modernization?Japan also suffered humiliation at foreign hands,albeit not as severe as China,but still...
                            China without the emperor didn't cope too well,with a series of dictatorships and civil wars.Not that there was peace and quiet during the last Qings,but there was a tradition of 2000 years that was overthrown seemingly over night.
                            Those who know don't speak
                            He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by kyli View Post
                              and the people of China started to turn their back on Qing and looked for alternatives.
                              And that is the key phrase. The people took China from the Qings, not the foreigners.

                              Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                              What I'd like to ask is why China didn't turned more like Japan in the sense of maintaining the Imperial institution while searching for modernization?Japan also suffered humiliation at foreign hands,albeit not as severe as China,but still...
                              The Chinese did tried at modernization but the sheer size make the momentum hard to achieve. It took a Deng Xia Peng to modernize China. They didn't have one back then.

                              Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                              China without the emperor didn't cope too well,with a series of dictatorships and civil wars.Not that there was peace and quiet during the last Qings,but there was a tradition of 2000 years that was overthrown seemingly over night.
                              That is one of the biggest myths of Chinese history, as if there has been one continuous civilization for 4000 years. The last emperor of China had as much in common with the Yellow Emperor as did Mussolini had with old Julius Caesar.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Persey View Post
                                My professor is focusing on unequal treaties and how they came to be. He wants us to focus, these are his exact instructions: on periods during which Asian countires were largely unable to resist the military pressures from foreign powers as many unequal treaties were signed by those Asian countries after military failure.

                                That's why I asked for info on treaties and military conquests. Were there any other treaties imposed on Asian countries other than Russia and the British?
                                As being pointed out, the French were in pretty big in the game...

                                Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                                What I'd like to ask is why China didn't turned more like Japan in the sense of maintaining the Imperial institution while searching for modernization?Japan also suffered humiliation at foreign hands,albeit not as severe as China,but still...
                                China without the emperor didn't cope too well,with a series of dictatorships and civil wars.Not that there was peace and quiet during the last Qings,but there was a tradition of 2000 years that was overthrown seemingly over night.
                                Because you miss the gigantic difference between China and Japan's monarchy, Japan's monarchy had cease to become a real ruler a loooooooooooooong time ago (like 1000 years) , they have been what they are now for a long time already, a symbolic figure, which makes the transformation to constitutional monarchy very easy and logical for Japan.

                                The Chinese however, emperors legitimately held power, and it was very big power that was only getting bigger as the dynasty progressed. the Chinese are also use to dynastic changes, chinese have long gotten past the idea of "one family for eternity" anyway. a dynasty's legitimacy had always relied pretty much on the real result.

                                The truth is, democracy or at least a non-monarchy government plays very strongly into Chinese culture and history anyway.

                                Menchius said "The people is the most important, then the society, then the state, the least important is the rulers" and "if the rulers treat his subjects like dirt, they'll threat him as a bandit"

                                And Confucian doctrines' utopia talk generally revolve around the days when leaders did not pass from father to son (passing power base on competence and not bloodline).

                                Both Japan and China simply reacted like their historical situation suggested they would, in Japan that meant toppling the shogunate, in China it meant toppling the ruling dynasty, and both went into a state of civil war due to that, but Japan was able to claim the situation much sooner, there's where as in China the situation was not truely settled until 1949.

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