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Thread: Shutdown fears grow as budget deadline nears

  1. #46
    Senior Contributor Dago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAD_333 View Post
    Actually, The Washington Post was the source of that claim in an article it published over over a week ago.

    And they are right. But critics quickly disputed the fact by responding in terms of percentage. The article said largest "real real dollar" cut, not largest percentage cut.

    Although spending will likely still go up this year (estimated increase is $200 bil), a $38B cut is a good start.
    Yeah, was under the impression that there was 33 billion in cuts. Which would mean in 1946, there were 37 billion in cuts.

    So this is one more billion then in 1946.

    Largest "real-dollar" doesn't have much an impact as the percentage.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Of course not. Let's see...what was that tax? Oh yes, tanning tax. What was that for exactly? How about the 1099 form that was mercifully killed in a vote? Above all, why does Obamacare need to have money transfered from Medicare to pay for it?

    You haven't addressed the point of 10 years worth of taxes to pay for 6 years of service. That's how CBO was able to say Obamacare was deficit "neutral" from 2011 to 2020. How about from 2021 to 2030? Do we suspend services from 2021 to 2024 so we can have 10 yeard of tax receipts to pay for 6 years of service?
    Your argument is specious. It is deficit nuetral because the taxes are for a longer period than the benefits the first decade and it is decifit reducing because of medicare savings the seond. If Bill puts 60 cents in the bank for ten years then spends 1 dollar a year for 6 He has not spent more than he saved. I know for many after looting the Social security trust fund earlier in the decade the idea of paying now for future benefits is abhorrent but it is deficit neutral. In the second decade there are even greater savings and ten years of benefits and taxes.
    Last edited by Roosveltrepub; 09 Apr 11, at 12:08.
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAD_333 View Post
    RR:

    You're deflecting again. You can't defend disobedience with disobedience.

    BTW, it was giving weapons to the Contras not procuring them for Iran, although that happened as well with Israeli help. The former was illegal, not unconstitutional. The latter was just plain stupid.

    As for the Patriot Act, when at war...
    No the sidebar had to do with things the goverment does that arent specified by name in the constituttion like say a spy service or an air force. The claim was because some believe them constitutional somehow we dont believe in the constitution. I just pointed to the things Public servants the right have done that are quite clearly illegal and impeachable yet the figuires who carried them out were highly popular on the right.The constitution isnt an instrument either side can claim as theirs alone it is American not democrat or republican and to claim carte blanche liberals dont believe in it is an ad hominem attack. Also the Patriot act was passed asfter those wire taps which were in my opinion the largest failure of fealty to the constitution in my lifetime and far worse than Nixon covering up criminal activity after the fact because it was done with full knowledge of the white house. How is ordering an illegal search of millions not worse than lying about cheating on youjr wife under oath. Pointing out that those who claim the left hates the constitution have turned a blind eye to high crimes by those they supported is not deflecting it's a reality check on self rightousness.

    Iran Contra Committee Key Findings A lot of folks who were supposed to be in charge just never knew and the constitution was frankly shat on by those involved repeatedly. Now, myself I am not sure which is worse they actually knew or this went on and those at the top didnt know.

    The constitution isnt something liberals hate and the right holds fealty to as gunut implied
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  4. #49
    Global Moderator Defense Professional JAD_333's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roosveltrepub View Post
    Also the Patriot act was passed asfter those wire taps which were in my opinion the largest failure of fealty to the constitution in my lifetime.
    In the context of war, and war narrowly defined serves your argument. Your lifetime?


    The constitution isnt something liberals hate and the right holds fealty to as gunut implied
    I am sure that is true overall. But not always. The health care insurance mandate is arguably unconstitutional, yet seasoned dem politicians under oath respond to the question with sad stories of poor people in need of healthcare. Ergo, the Constitution can be violated to help the poor. Federal power can be enlarged if the cause is good.
    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

  5. #50
    Contributor RoccoR's Avatar
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    et al,

    All I have to say is that we should fire House Speaker John Boehner and every member of Congress.

    v/r
    R

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAD_333 View Post
    In the context of war, and war narrowly defined serves your argument. Your lifetime?




    I am sure that is true overall. But not always. The health care insurance mandate is arguably unconstitutional, yet seasoned dem politicians under oath respond to the question with sad stories of poor people in need of healthcare. Ergo, the Constitution can be violated to help the poor. Federal power can be enlarged if the cause is good.
    That's what the Supreme court is for. As with the many times republican actions were ruled unconstitutional by the courts under Bush if that mandate is unconstitional it will be struck down because the flip side of your arguemnt is an argument can be made it is constitutional. My only real point was the idea liberals hate the document and conservatives are it's sole upholders is ludicrous and sophmoric. We have a system of checks and balances when one movement or the other over reaches and both the right and left have in the past.
    Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost.”
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roosveltrepub View Post
    As with the many times republican actions were ruled unconstitutional by the courts under Bush if that mandate is unconstitional it will be struck down because the flip side of your arguemnt is an argument can be made it is constitutional.
    Just because something is not yet ruled unconstitutional does not make it constitutional.
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    Recommended Reading, Arnold Kling | EconLog | Library of Economics and Liberty

    Speaking of fiscal prospects, John Taylor explains the budget debate.

    perhaps the biggest difference is that the House Budget brings outlays as a share of GDP back close to 2007 levels as a share of GDP, thereby removing the large spending increase of the years 2008-2009-2010, while the Administration budget effectively locks in that increase.


    Somehow, we could ratchet up spending by hundreds of billions at the drop of a hat. Reducing spending by less than $100 billion becomes Armageddon.

    The left blogosphere assures us that domestic discretionary spending is restrained, Social Security is not a problem, Obamacare has taken care of health care "cost inflation,"* and the deficit is mostly cyclical. All of this fails to explain the basic outlook for outlays relative to GDP.

    *Keep in mind, of course, that most of the increase in health care spending is not pure cost inflation. A lot of it reflects increased utilization of medical services, especially those that require high-tech equipment and specialists.
    I haven't come across third party validation of the Ryan plan, and so I'm not touting that in this post. I think the important piece is to ask why we see historically high outlays as a % of GDP in the out years and why it was so tough to find spending cuts in the budget battle.
    Last edited by Shek; 10 Apr 11, at 02:05.
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    I guess this new system we've come up with has the potential for saving money in congressional salaries.

    We now know we can send 533 members of Congress home, they're not needed.

    The President, the Speaker, and the Senate Majority Leader will make all the spending decisions amongst themselves in closed door sessions.

    Let's just tear up Article 1, there's no use for it anymore.
    "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shek View Post
    Recommended Reading, Arnold Kling | EconLog | Library of Economics and Liberty



    I haven't come across third party validation of the Ryan plan, and so I'm not touting that in this post. I think the important piece is to ask why we see historically high outlays as a % of GDP in the out years and why it was so tough to find spending cuts in the budget battle.
    The CBO has done a basic analysis on the Ryan budget and I am sure you are aware of the projections Ryan used to get his numbers.Thanks for aknowledging the projections are partisan. I know you are fine with all but eliminating medicare but when it starts happening in 10 to 20 years the polling says the public wont be for it. I think the single greatest flaw in the plan is similar to many critisms of obamacare but potentially more dangerous because taxcuts dont get the scrutiny of tax increases. Ryan's plan has taxcuts first then all that projected growth before he cuts medicare down to paying 32 percent of senior medical expenses to save all that money. It stinks of the same logic as taxcuts with sunsets. It's absurd to think when more people are on the programs they will allow them to be cut. It ignores to growing selfishness of the country.

    The reason we cant find savings in the budget as you know is the fiscal conservative movement have made 80 percent of the budget a sacred cow. Why do we think when we have a larger population of seniors in 20 years they are going to allow this? IMO we should be making modest cuts to SS and medicare based on means testing TODAY with modest drops in the line where benefits are reduced every year till we hit a reasonable balance where all those who can pay a bit more for medicare and live comfortable are and all those who would live comfortable without SS are getting a reduced benefit and both programs have a sliding scale that provides a safety net for those who only have the programs. The idea of future cuts being the answer once again just passes responsibility forward and like the sunsets on taxcuts it wont happen.


    Medicare and SS and defense should be on the table now now now not 20 years from now and the reason we cant find cuts is they arent. It's fallacious thinking to believe if we wont touch them today that in the future people will stand for deeper cuts because they were decided in the past.
    Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost.”
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  11. #56
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Roos,you talk too much in favor of the SS.I think you're a racist Nazi.Action must be taken
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    Roos,you talk too much in favor of the SS.I think you're a racist Nazi.Action must be taken
    LOL, did you catch the austrian baker making nazi cakes last week. Soemhow gee I am sorry for celebrating the holocaust just doesnt cut it imo.
    Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost.”
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  13. #58
    Banned Senior Contributor dalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roosveltrepub View Post
    Medicare and SS and defense should be on the table now now now not 20 years from now
    Deal. Let's cut 10% from each.

    -dale

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    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roosveltrepub View Post
    So you love the constitution then tell me were the illegal wiretaps the Bush white house ordered and the illegal arm sales to Iran to circumvent congresses power of the purse impeachable offenses? If not why?
    Here it is again, let's drag Bush in.

    I'm gonna make a special form reply made just for you whenever you use Bush to deflect the current topic.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalem View Post
    Deal. Let's cut 10% from each.

    -dale
    I'd agree with that if it was scaled to need. Too bad we dont make the call
    Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost.”
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