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What is up with the F-35? Part II

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  • The advantages of an air force are reach and speed. Only a plane can hit a target far behind enemy targets, or rush fast to support someone in need.

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    • Originally posted by Dazed View Post
      Just as in every war.

      I believe the quote of one Iraqi armored division commander went like this; "After 3 weeks of bombing I had 90% of my division remaining. After 3 days of artillery fire I had 80% of my division remaining. After 3 hours of the American 1st Armored Division I had none of my division left."
      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
      Mark Twain

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      • @Albany Rifles, thank you for that link. Fascinating.

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        • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
          I believe the quote of one Iraqi armored division commander went like this; "After 3 weeks of bombing I had 90% of my division remaining. After 3 days of artillery fire I had 80% of my division remaining. After 3 hours of the American 1st Armored Division I had none of my division left."
          Saw a similar quote just after Desert Storm in reference to Bravo Company, 4th Marine Tank Batalion (reserve) out of Yakima, WA that destroyed the bulk of an Iraqi Republican Guard Armored Regiment in 90 seconds (34 kills) before finishing "Reveille Engagement) with a total of around 120 Iraqi AFV's destroyed.

          http://bravocompany4thtankbattalion.org/history/

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          • Originally posted by Shinytop View Post
            @Albany Rifles, thank you for that link. Fascinating.
            Thanks

            I would read a cereal box if it is written by Anthony Cordesman.

            Yeah, Z, I remember that as well. Can't open the link. Did they have M1A1s or M60A3s?

            As for the base topic.

            Okay, so everyone is determined that the F-35 will fail. I will not argue that there has been problems and issues with the development. And trying to put too many things into a single airframe may have been a mistake.

            But from a professional Acquisition Logistician position I can honestly say I am heartened by what I see is happening on the program. The system is post Milestone C in its Acquisition Timeline. What that means is the Defense Acquisition Executive has given permission to go into Low Rate Initial Production (LRIP). In the LRIP stage the system in question is allowed to build up to 10% of the total number of things projected to be procured. Those items produced in the LRIP stage are to be put into unit service and given extensive wringing out in operational use. The issues we are finding out now are actually a good thing. They are fixable. Software integration is the single most difficult thing to pull off in designing, developing and producing a new weapon system. It takes this kind of use to find those issues. You can system engineer out the wazzoo and you still miss a shitload of issues before this stage. And don’t forget, the entire support infrastructure has to be built. The line chiefs who are working on the aircraft have as much expertise on maintaining the aircraft as their mechanics. There is no institutional knowledge for the sustainment base to fall back on for figuring out issues.

            The first brigade set of M1s was different than the main production of M1s. I am talking all the way back in 1980/1981. I can think of no major weapon system we have ever fielded which did not have the same model and were later followed up with the –A1, -A2, or –B, -C, -D etc.

            You can model and test but until you get into Joe’s hands you do not what the system will do.

            I am keeping my powder dry on the F-35 for awhile.
            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
            Mark Twain

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            • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
              Yeah, Z, I remember that as well. Can't open the link. Did they have M1A1s or M60A3s?
              The website says they had brand-new M1A1's, and they used them to "deadly effect"; in their first engagement with IRG forces, they were outnumbered 35-13, and took out every IRG tank in less than 90 seconds with no Marine loses.
              "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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              • Originally posted by Stitch View Post
                The website says they had brand-new M1A1's, and they used them to "deadly effect"; in their first engagement with IRG forces, they were outnumbered 35-13, and took out every IRG tank in less than 90 seconds with no Marine loses.
                I'm at work, so can't read much... were these engagements at night or during the day?

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                • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
                  I'm at work, so can't read much... were these engagements at night or during the day?
                  Sounds like it was early morning; they were on "25% watch" on February 25, 1991, which tells me it was probably sometime between 0000 and 0600. If it was dark, this is where the Abram's FLIR and laser rangefinder came in handy, since the Iraqi's probably had neither:

                  "On February 25th, 1991, Day 2 of the Desert Storm ground war, Bravo Company 4th Tank Battalion was in a coil formation and awakened from a 25% watch to find 35 Iraqi Republican Guard tanks angling across their front, not realizing at the time that they were outnumbered 3-1. With their 13 M1A1 Abrams tanks, Bravo Company 4th Tank Battalion moved online to take out the 35 Iraqi Republican Guard tanks in LESS THAN 90 seconds. This battle was named the “Reveille Engagement” and went on to be the Biggest and Fastest tank battle in United States Marine Corps history!"

                  Another interesting tidbit from the website: longest confirmed "live" kill (i.e.: not a target on a range) by any tank in history at 3,750 meters (2.33 miles); the hapless victim on the receiving end of the M829A1 round was an Iraqi BMP.
                  "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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                  • Originally posted by Stitch View Post
                    Another interesting tidbit from the website: longest confirmed "live" kill (i.e.: not a target on a range) by any tank in history at 3,750 meters (2.33 miles); the hapless victim on the receiving end of the M829A1 round was an Iraqi BMP.
                    Err... I thought the longest was a Challenger 1, at something like over 4km...

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                    • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
                      Err... I thought the longest was a Challenger 1, at something like over 4km...
                      You're right, a Chally got a kill at 2.9 miles (4,700 meters) during "Operation Granby" (Desert Storm); I'm thinking they mean the longest recorded kill by a US Marine tank.
                      "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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                      • Great article on F-35 production

                        F-35 Production Set to Quadruple As Massive Factory Retools
                        “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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                        • Originally posted by Stitch View Post
                          The website says they had brand-new M1A1's, and they used them to "deadly effect"; in their first engagement with IRG forces, they were outnumbered 35-13, and took out every IRG tank in less than 90 seconds with no Marine loses.
                          The marine tankers brought back a T-72 from the engagement (I've was in it June 91 IIRC?). They also brought back bent and even pancaked Soviet made sabots that bounced off the Abrams.

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                          • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                            Yup....they are getting ready to leave the Low Rate Initial Production Phase and move to Full Deployment Phase of their post-Milestone C Life Cycle. Makes absolute sense.
                            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                            Mark Twain

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                            • Here's an interesting chart showing platform usage employed by the USAF against ISIS.

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                              http://www.defensenews.com/story/def...ikes/83617858/

                              While not about the F-35 directly, it's interesting to see the current usage of platforms in low intensity conflict, and how the F-35 with it's focus on ground search and attack might be employed in the future.

                              The B-1 has been doing some serious heavy lifting, and according to the article, has only dropped PGMs, so the numbers aren't inflated due to indiscriminate carpet bombing. It appears it's performance has resulted in investment from the USAF as the B-1s left the region in January for the first time since 2001 to undergo the biggest fleetwide upgrade in the aircraft’s long history, called Block 16.

                              On the opposite end of the spectrum, Drones appear to be getting more sorties than I would have expected despite their light weapons load, presumably for generally keeping an eye on things and searching for targets.

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                              • Executive Summary of Denmark's Fighter Type Selection

                                This is an interesting document that shows Denmark's selection process when choosing between the Eurofighter, Joint Strike Fighter, and Super Hornet. Each fighter is given weighted rankings along with explanations in terms of Strategic aspects, Military aspects, Economic aspects, and Industrial aspects.

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                                The full report with redactions can be found here in Danish.
                                Last edited by SteveDaPirate; 12 May 16,, 17:35.

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