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What is up with the F-35? Part II

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  • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Spoke with someone from Marine G-4 last week. He stated they will keep 3 squadrons of Super Hornets to operate off the big decks and all of the rest with be F-35Bs.
    Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    JA Boomer,

    I don't know your sources but this was from a guy who works the policy within the building for USMC. You may be right in the long run but the plan was as I stated per the midterm.
    Originally posted by citanon View Post
    Ar, I've seen from multiple sources that the Marines only have A-D hornets. Unless they are picking up some from the Navy, maybe the guy just misspoke about hornets vs super hornets...
    I'm guessing he was either referring to the 3 EA-6B Prowler squadrons the USMC is maintaining for a few more years or the 4 F/A-18A++/C squadrons that will transition to the F-35C as opposed to the B-model (perhaps they will be the last to transition?).

    But the USMC does not operate nor has any plans to procure the Super Bug.

    Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    And yes, USMC VF squadrons regularly deploy on USN carriers as a plug in to USN Air Wing. They are, after all, Naval Aviators.
    I guess I just don't understand why, especially with only 4 USMC F-35C squadrons instead of the 9 F/A-18A++/C squadrons now which give coverage to almost every carrier air wing. Seems like a logistic, training, and planning headache to me that has no real advantage.
    Last edited by JA Boomer; 26 Aug 16,, 22:41.

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    • Originally posted by JA Boomer View Post

      I guess I just don't understand why, especially with only 4 USMC F-35C squadrons instead of the 9 F/A-18A++/C squadrons now which give coverage to almost every carrier air wing. Seems like a logistic, training, and planning headache to me that has no real advantage.
      Because planes and pilots are bought/trained with "Blue" money. We have been part of the CAG forever. We have even had a Marine Col as the CAG Commander.

      Comment


      • Have we heard from this guy before or is this a new complaint?

        http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/26/politi...emo/index.html

        (CNN)The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program is drawing sharp criticism from the Pentagon's top weapons tester, who warns the aircraft is "on a path of failing to deliver" its full combat capability.

        The sobering review of the US military's $400 billion program comes despite its achieving several major development milestones this month. The single-engine, fifth-generation F-35 fighter jet is touted as the future of military aviation: A lethal and versatile aircraft to replace the aging fleet currently used by all three military branches.

        An Aug. 9th memo from Michael Gilmore, the Defense Department's director of operational testing, to defense officials details the tester's concerns.

        Dated just one week after the Air Force declared its version of the F-35 ready for initial combat operations, Gilmore wrote that the advanced aircraft continues to demonstrate limitations related to its software, data fusion, electronic warfare and weapons employment, according to Bloomberg News, which first reported the memo.

        "Achieving full combat capability with the Joint Strike Fighter is at substantial risk" of not occurring before development is supposed to end and realistic combat testing begins, he wrote in the memo to Air Force Secretary Deborah Lee James; Gen. David Goldfein, the service's chief of staff, and Frank Kendall, the Pentagon's acquisitions chief, according to Bloomberg.

        Roger Cabiness, a Department of Defense spokesman for the Director of Operational Test and Evaluation, confirmed the contents of Gilmore's memo and told CNN it "provides details of significant performance problems that must be corrected for the Joint Strike Fighter to achieve full combat capability, as well as concerns that the program likely lacks the resources needed to correct those problems consistent with beginning operational testing in 2018."

        Combining advanced stealth with speed, agility and a 360-degree view of the battlefield, the F-35 is already the most expensive weapons system in history and has come under harsh scrutiny from lawmakers and watchdog groups after numerous hardware malfunctions and software glitches delayed the aircraft's production for more than three years and caused its budget to swell some $200 billion over initial estimates.

        However, the Pentagon's F-35 Joint Program office downplayed the severity the issues noted in the memo, telling CNN that it is aware of all Gilmore's concerns and is currently acting on all of his recommendations.

        "While nearing completion, the F-35 is still in development and technical challenges are to be expected," Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdon, the F-35's chief executive officer, said in a statement.
        "The program has a proven track record of solving technical issues and we're confident we'll continue to do so," he added.
        The Air Force said it is also working to address the problems detailed by Gilmore and reiterated that it has seen significant progress.

        Despite Gilmore's warning that the program "is running out of time and money to complete the planned flight testing and implement the required fixes and modifications," the Joint Program Office remains optimistic that it will be able to complete the next-generation fighter in keeping with its latest schedule and within its most recent budget allocation.

        As a testament to the program's progress, Bogdon also noted that the F-35 has already been employed in multiple realistic, demanding deployments and exercises.
        "The results of these operationally realistic events have been positive as the F-35 is proving to be a formidable weapons system that not only provides better capabilities when compared to legacy aircraft but also makes legacy aircraft more effective with its battlespace awareness, sensor fusion, and electronic attack & protective capabilities," he said in a statement.

        In addition to the Air Force declaring its version of the F-35 ready for combat earlier this month, the DOD's Joint Program Office touted recent successes in testing the fighter's weapons firing system.
        The Marines declared its version of the aircraft combat-ready in July 2015, while the Navy expects to reach that milestone in 2018.

        Comment


        • One has to remember that this guy's office gets ALL of its data from the JPO. It does exactly zero testing itself. So, the most charitable thing one could say about this guy is that he has a different opinion than the JPO.

          Comment


          • It seems lessons of the past have been forgotten:

            http://aviationweek.com/defense/weap...97ce9e6ac7e59b

            "But the program is discovering integration problems with both SDB 1 and AIM-9X. DOT&E is particularly concerned with December testing of the AIM-9X, which revealed “load exceedances,” or excess stress, on the Navy F-35C variant’s wing structure during landings and certain maneuvers. This will either limit the F-35C’s ability to carry AIM-9X or require a redesign and testing of the supporting wing structure, DOT&E says."

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            • Originally posted by Dazed View Post
              It seems lessons of the past have been forgotten:

              http://aviationweek.com/defense/weap...97ce9e6ac7e59b

              "But the program is discovering integration problems with both SDB 1 and AIM-9X. DOT&E is particularly concerned with December testing of the AIM-9X, which revealed “load exceedances,” or excess stress, on the Navy F-35C variant’s wing structure during landings and certain maneuvers. This will either limit the F-35C’s ability to carry AIM-9X or require a redesign and testing of the supporting wing structure, DOT&E says."
              Omfg... let me guess: everyone was so focused on "internal carriage because stealth" they forgot to settup the external loads?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
                Omfg... let me guess: everyone was so focused on "internal carriage because stealth" they forgot to settup the external loads?
                No. The JPO has the problems in hand. DOT&E is up to its usual drama queen antics. (Although that's sort of its job). DOT&E does no actual testing itself. It gets all data from JPO and then comments on the data that it gets. That's yet.

                Comment


                • I have argued with DOT&E folks for years. My experience has been they are veneer deep in knowledge on the systems they evaluate.

                  They also usually fixate on the Objective requirement and the services accept at the threshold level of capability with the knowledge systems tend to grow to Objective level during their life cycle.
                  “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                  Mark Twain

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                    I have argued with DOT&E folks for years. My experience has been they are veneer deep in knowledge on the systems they evaluate.

                    They also usually fixate on the Objective requirement and the services accept at the threshold level of capability with the knowledge systems tend to grow to Objective level during their life cycle.
                    yep, they see the objective as a literal fixed milestone that if not achieved on the day is then inflated to the status of a showstopper - and ignore the reality that all projects undergo development and improvement from day 1

                    unless you are manufacturing an established widget - then all complex platforms change at each gate as new or better processes and design issues get identified.

                    they treat it like a kamban issue popping out things like ladders rather than a complex capability - eg Virginia sub development was more complex than designing and building the space shuttle.
                    Linkeden:
                    http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
                    http://cofda.wordpress.com/

                    Comment


                    • Legacy fighter getting an update

                      http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/02/politi...des/index.html
                      The F-15 has long been hailed as the most successful dog-fighting aircraft in US history, boasting an undefeated air-to-air combat record with more than 100 aerial combat victories, according to Boeing, the plane's primary contractor and developer.

                      The Air Force initially planned to replace the entire F-15 fleet with the fifth-generation F-22 Raptor, but production of the stealthy aircraft was halted in 2009 and only 188 of the 749 F-22s purchased by the Pentagon were ever produced.

                      With rival nations like China and Russia quickly closing the technology gap that has allowed the US to rule the skies for decades and fewer F-22s than expected at its disposal, the Air Force has decided to invest in a major facelift for the battle-tested F-15 to help fill the void by extending its lifespan through 2040.

                      The upgrade will cover 435 F-15s, boosting them with new radar technology, updated mission computer systems, modern communication tools, advanced infrared search and track capabilities and electronic warfare defenses so the F-15s can work in concert with more advanced aircraft, the Air Force told CNN.

                      Many of the upgraded F-15's will also be modified to carry 16 missiles, rather than the standard eight, giving those aircraft greater lethality, said Boeing spokesman Randy Jackson.
                      "Our potential adversaries are keenly aware of the importance of air superiority to our nation's way of war," Air Force spokesman Maj. Robert Leese told CNN. "This is why they continue to seek ways to contest our advantage in the air through the development and proliferation of new weapon systems."

                      "To maintain this advantage, the Air Force must not only develop new systems of our own, but continue to upgrade the capabilities of our legacy systems like the F-15," he said.

                      While the current initiative to update the F-15 with new technology dates back to 2002 with the development of its advanced radar system, the Air Force says the process has been a gradual one, with work on the modern radio and infrared targeting programs beginning just this year.

                      "The process to upgrade these planes is currently being evaluated and capabilities are being developed and tested," Boeing spokesman Randy Jackson told CNN.
                      While the F-15 will still lack the stealth capability of the F-22, upgrades in radar technology, infrared search and track, and electronic warfare capabilities will significantly improve its ability to detect, target, and engage enemy aircraft at a tactical advantage, according to the Air Force.

                      And the new high-tech mission computer and upgraded radio communication tools will not only allow the F-15 to better complement and communicate with its F-22 partner on the battlefield, but are also designed to support future technology as it is developed.

                      "The fourth generation F-15 has an unmatched record of success in the air-to-air role, and provides the critical additional capacity needed to augment and supplement the F-22 force in support of today's air superiority mission sets," Maj. Leese told CNN.

                      "As the Air Force continues to review our future force structure over the coming year, balancing operational effectiveness with current budget limitations, we expect the F-15 to play a critical role in the defense of our nation for the foreseeable future," he said.

                      The various upgrades will finish installing between 2024 and 2030, according to the Air Force.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
                        With so few F-22s, no wonder the F-15 has to keep flying...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
                          With so few F-22s, no wonder the F-15 has to keep flying...
                          There's been speculation that the F-15 would be used as a arsenal plane in concert with stealth fighters for a while. I wonder if they'll add MADL to the F-22 and F-15 now?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
                            There's been speculation that the F-15 would be used as a arsenal plane in concert with stealth fighters for a while. I wonder if they'll add MADL to the F-22 and F-15 now?
                            http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=66251

                            Here's an article without Tyler Rogoway's hyperbole:

                            http://www.janes.com/article/60050/u...te-to-the-test
                            Last edited by citanon; 03 Sep 16,, 20:50.

                            Comment


                            • Pilots Say F-35 Fighter Is A Winner. So Where's The Media Coverage?
                              By Loren Thompson

                              Media coverage of new weapons being developed for America’s military is almost always negative. If a program is behind schedule, or over budget, or exhibiting shortfalls in performance, you’re sure to hear about it. If everything is going fine, there’s no coverage — at least, not in the national media.

                              Which is why you never hear much anymore about the F-35 fighter. The F-35 program will replace the Cold War tactical aircraft of three U.S. military services and a dozen allies with a family of multi-role fighters designed to be at least five times better than legacy planes at defeating threats in the air and on the ground. It’s a really ambitious program — in fact, one of the greatest engineering challenges of this generation.

                              And it is doing fine. The cost of both the airframe and the engine is declining in each successive production lot, with the most common variant — the Air Force version — likely to cost no more than the legacy planes it replaces. Each of the fighter’s three variants is delivering all of its promised performance gains in flight testing and operations at eight bases (soon to be 25 bases). Nearly 200 planes have been delivered. 300 pilots and 3,000 maintainers have been trained. To quote Pentagon managers in March testimony before Congress,

                              "The F-35 program is executing well across the entire spectrum of acquisition, to include development and design, flight test, production, fielding and base stand-up, sustainment of fielded aircraft, and building a global sustainment enterprise…Our overall assessment is that the program is making solid progress across the board and shows improvement each day while continuing to manage emerging issues and mitigate programmatic risks.”

                              And it isn’t just the managers who are singing F-35′s praises. The pilots are impressed. I heard a senior Marine officer say this summer that his service doesn’t like to make pilots in older fighters fly exercises against the F-35 because it’s too demoralizing — the F-35s always win. Navy pilots say landing the highly automated F-35 on a carrier deck is much easier and safer than it was with Cold War planes.

                              An Air Force pilot quoted in one of the service’s local outlets at Eglin Air Force Base reported that flying against the F-35 in training exercises is like being blindfolded because the plane is invisible to radar: “We turned hot, drove for about 30 seconds and we were dead, just like that. We never even saw [the F-35].” That’s precisely the kind of performance military planners were looking for 20 years ago when they proposed a family of stealthy fighters with integrated sensors and secure networking that could deliver superior situational awareness to pilots.

                              So maybe I’m just overly impressed because several of the companies on the F-35 team contribute to my think tank or are consulting clients*. But I would think that when the Pentagon’s biggest program is making steady progress and exhibiting breakthrough performance gains, that would be considered newsworthy at places like the New York Times and CNN. Link
                              ___________


                              Granted, this is Loren Thompson* so I take things with a decent grain of salt. However he makes a good point: As the program and the plane finally gain maturity, the press coverage and ink spilled by the naysayers seems to taper off. On the other side of the coin is "Should this tri-plane program have even been attempted in the first place...especially throwing a VSTOL version into the mix".

                              A further question: If the F-35 is such a demon at air combat...when does it get thrown up against the F-22?
                              “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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                              • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post

                                A further question: If the F-35 is such a demon at air combat...when does it get thrown up against the F-22?
                                thats a multiple choice question :) - my understanding is that run offs have already happened
                                but then its also a question of what Block F-22 etc - early F-22's aren't the same fuzzy dice as the current Block etc....
                                then there are the environment questions, eg Blue Flag level of constructed event or basic platform to platform...
                                Linkeden:
                                http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
                                http://cofda.wordpress.com/

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