Page 105 of 120 FirstFirst ... 96979899100101102103104105106107108109110111112113114 ... LastLast
Results 1,561 to 1,575 of 1788

Thread: What is up with the F-35? Part II

  1. #1561
    Global Moderator
    Military Professional
    Defense Professional
    Albany Rifles's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Apr 07
    Location
    Prince George, VA
    Posts
    8,362
    Anyway, I hate to sound like a commie pinko but I see the main advantage of an extended airframe life for the most expensive weapons system in history is that you can use it as a carrot for military brass involved in the program as they will know there will be plenty of consulting jobs available long after they retire from a military career.

    Anotar,

    You are new here so I will give you a pass.

    However, as a professional Acquisition Logistician in the United States Army highly insulting and disrespectful. The Acquisition Corps of the US Department of Defense are professionals. We are held to a higher standard of ethics compared to other members of the US Civil Service. Just about everyone who has tried that crap has been 1) tried in the federal courts (see the KC Tanker Deal & Boeing) and ostrasized and banished from the community.

    From about 1998 through 2010 we purged our corps of these bad actors. Changes in Federal Acquisition law forced this reform.

    That said, the decision like the service life of an aircraft, tank or ship are not decided by the Acquisition community. Those decision come from the Capabilities Developer...i.e., the people who write doctrine and represent the Soldier, Air man or Sailor. Acquisition personnel get the funding and manage the development of a product and then are responsible for budgeting for the sustainment of the weapon system over its entire life cycle (repair parts, support equipment, training products, etc.)

    As to the specific issue of the $500 M for testing...remember YFs comment about requirements creep? This is where that impacts. Lockheed planned and budgeted for X amount. When the new capabilities were added in the cost of the testing went up. That is what you are seeing here.

    And I want that system to be tested to the nth degree. That makes sure it works and works properly when it gets to the fleet/squadrons.

    This is actually a good thing.
    “We had been hopelessly labouring to plough waste lands; to make nationality grow in a place full of the certainty of God… Among the tribes our creed could be only like the desert grass – a beautiful swift seeming of spring; which, after a day’s heat, fell dusty.”
    ― T.E. Lawrence, Seven Pillars of Wisdom: A Triumph

  2. #1562
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    05 Sep 08
    Posts
    1,835
    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    And I want that system to be tested to the nth degree. That makes sure it works and works properly when it gets to the fleet/squadrons.

    This is actually a good thing.
    And if a lowly civilitian may add another note? "Don't confuse the politicians that make the decisions with the people that have to work with them".

  3. #1563
    Global Moderator
    Military Professional
    Defense Professional
    Albany Rifles's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Apr 07
    Location
    Prince George, VA
    Posts
    8,362
    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    And if a lowly civilitian may add another note? "Don't confuse the politicians that make the decisions with the people that have to work with them".
    1. No such thing as a lowly civilian. That is who we work for and protect. You are, in effect, The Boss.

    2. And totally agree with your point. We are about to undergo a massive change in Administrations. There will be much kerfuffle and change at the top but my day to day life is not likely to change. The only way my life changes is if the funding for my program gets cancelled...which is not likely as we are designed to meet a very specific Congressional requirement for Army audibility. If that happens I'm likely to move to another program...or I will retire.
    “We had been hopelessly labouring to plough waste lands; to make nationality grow in a place full of the certainty of God… Among the tribes our creed could be only like the desert grass – a beautiful swift seeming of spring; which, after a day’s heat, fell dusty.”
    ― T.E. Lawrence, Seven Pillars of Wisdom: A Triumph

  4. #1564
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
    Join Date
    08 Aug 13
    Location
    Kansas City, United States
    Posts
    1,282
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    If its so good, How was it out performed in a dog fight with an F16??
    There was no dogfight. An F-16 went up with a test model of the F-35 to explore software control law limits.

    An F-16 was used because it represents a known quantity and therefore a useful measuring stick. We've operated thousands of F-16s for decades; enough to know exactly how fast they can pitch, roll, or yaw under various conditions. The F-35 was relatively new, and they were trying to determine how restrictive to make the software that controls how fast it lets the aircraft maneuver for a given pilot input.

    With software setting "A", does the F-35 pitch up faster or slower than the F-16 at full input, how about half input? How much faster or slower? How about with setting "B" that is less restrictive? Does setting "C" result in a departure from controlled flight because it isn't restrictive enough? The best way to measure what an adjustment to the flight control software will have is to go out and measure it against an aircraft that is already well understood.

    The point is to figure out where to set the software to maximise the performance of the aircraft without letting it get out of control.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A dogfight isn't a great measuring stick for fighter performance these days, but if there were to be one between an F-16 and an F-35, the F-16 would have to be very lucky not to get munched.

    F-35's have greater post stall nose pointing authority than F-16s, more fuel (thus afterburner time), better acceleration and deceleration, and a bigger cannon. F-35's have a better radar to see their target first, and stealth to not be seen in return. This allows the F-35 pilot the opportunity to swing around and approach their target from a blind spot and ambush them. An F-16 can't sneak up on an F-35 because F-35's have infrared sensors that look in 360 degrees at all times.

    F-16s do have a higher top speed (if flying clean at least) which will be important so they can run for the hills if hostile F-35s are reported to be in the area.
    Last edited by SteveDaPirate; 20 Dec 16, at 18:31.

  5. #1565
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    05 Sep 08
    Posts
    1,835
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    There was no dogfight. An F-16 went up with a test model of the F-35 to explore software control law limits.
    Alfa & Beta software testing is a pain beyond words. And boring has hell.

  6. #1566
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
    Join Date
    08 Aug 13
    Location
    Kansas City, United States
    Posts
    1,282
    Quote Originally Posted by anotar View Post
    Anyway, I hate to sound like a commie pinko but I see the main advantage of an extended airframe life for the most expensive weapons system in history is that you can use it as a carrot for military brass involved in the program as they will know there will be plenty of consulting jobs available long after they retire from a military career.
    The Navy's Super Hornets that entered full rate production in 2001 were supposed to last 20 years, but are already hitting their service hour limits after only 15 years due to heavy usage. This has forced the USN to conduct SLEP programs for both the Hornets and Super Hornets to repair and refurbish worn out parts of the aircraft. The repair depots haven't been able to keep up with the demand. (54% of the Navy's Hornets are out of service)

    As a result, there are a bunch of unusable fighters sitting around waiting until they can be revamped, and the Navy has had to buy a bunch more brand new Super Hornets to fill in the gaps in the meantime. Buying more aircraft than you wanted to, and conducting SLEP programs years before you intended to is terribly expensive, and heavily impacts budgets.

    Building an airframe that can take more abuse before it needs to be rebuilt is far less expensive than what has transpired with the overworked Hornet/Super Hornet fleet. It's a somewhat bigger investment up front to save a bunch of money down the line.
    Last edited by SteveDaPirate; 20 Dec 16, at 20:33.

  7. #1567

    Join Date
    11 Apr 08
    Posts
    9
    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Anyway, I hate to sound like a commie pinko but I see the main advantage of an extended airframe life for the most expensive weapons system in history is that you can use it as a carrot for military brass involved in the program as they will know there will be plenty of consulting jobs available long after they retire from a military career.

    Anotar,

    You are new here so I will give you a pass.

    However, as a professional Acquisition Logistician in the United States Army highly insulting and disrespectful. The Acquisition Corps of the US Department of Defense are professionals. We are held to a higher standard of ethics compared to other members of the US Civil Service. Just about everyone who has tried that crap has been 1) tried in the federal courts (see the KC Tanker Deal & Boeing) and ostrasized and banished from the community.

    From about 1998 through 2010 we purged our corps of these bad actors. Changes in Federal Acquisition law forced this reform.

    That said, the decision like the service life of an aircraft, tank or ship are not decided by the Acquisition community. Those decision come from the Capabilities Developer...i.e., the people who write doctrine and represent the Soldier, Air man or Sailor. Acquisition personnel get the funding and manage the development of a product and then are responsible for budgeting for the sustainment of the weapon system over its entire life cycle (repair parts, support equipment, training products, etc.)

    As to the specific issue of the $500 M for testing...remember YFs comment about requirements creep? This is where that impacts. Lockheed planned and budgeted for X amount. When the new capabilities were added in the cost of the testing went up. That is what you are seeing here.

    And I want that system to be tested to the nth degree. That makes sure it works and works properly when it gets to the fleet/squadrons.

    This is actually a good thing.
    Apologies, I did not write anything with the intent to be insulting or disrespectful. If anything the intent was to point out how requirement creep can burden the design and original intent of a weapons platform to the point of unwieldiness. My intent was to have a subtle implication that the instigators of these changes may be recommending them for purposes other than the creation of the absolute best air superiority platform in the world.

    A tiny bit of background regarding my own personal experience with procurement was back in the early 2000's my company supplied various items for the Armed Forces (Operation Iraqi Freedom) in the Middle East. Nothing major just small stuff like JD Gators, electrical transformers, MDF plywood, etc. So I have at least a rudimentary knowledge of military acquisition and logistics. The personnel I worked with over there were to a person hard working,conscientious, and ethical. I haven't done anything in this area for the last dozen years so I have no recent experience, nor am I aware about the reforms you mentioned. My reference to "military brass" was not directed at acquisition or logistics, I'll leave it at that as the written word can be too vulnerable for misinterpretation.

  8. #1568
    Global Moderator
    Military Professional
    Defense Professional
    Albany Rifles's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Apr 07
    Location
    Prince George, VA
    Posts
    8,362
    Quote Originally Posted by anotar View Post
    Apologies, I did not write anything with the intent to be insulting or disrespectful. If anything the intent was to point out how requirement creep can burden the design and original intent of a weapons platform to the point of unwieldiness. My intent was to have a subtle implication that the instigators of these changes may be recommending them for purposes other than the creation of the absolute best air superiority platform in the world.

    A tiny bit of background regarding my own personal experience with procurement was back in the early 2000's my company supplied various items for the Armed Forces (Operation Iraqi Freedom) in the Middle East. Nothing major just small stuff like JD Gators, electrical transformers, MDF plywood, etc. So I have at least a rudimentary knowledge of military acquisition and logistics. The personnel I worked with over there were to a person hard working,conscientious, and ethical. I haven't done anything in this area for the last dozen years so I have no recent experience, nor am I aware about the reforms you mentioned. My reference to "military brass" was not directed at acquisition or logistics, I'll leave it at that as the written word can be too vulnerable for misinterpretation.
    No worries

    As you can imagine, it is a very touchy subject for those of us in Acquisition Corps as we worked long and hard to purge the bad ones out. We now do annual financial disclosure statements (same as Congress and anyone who is an SES) and the amount of acquisition education we go through is staggering. DOD, as mandated by Congress, has even established a staff college for acquisition, the Defense Acquisition University. When I complete my last course with them in May I will receive an MBA in Acquisition Logistics...which is the standard for my duty position. And I am just a GS-13.

    Post away with no fears!
    “We had been hopelessly labouring to plough waste lands; to make nationality grow in a place full of the certainty of God… Among the tribes our creed could be only like the desert grass – a beautiful swift seeming of spring; which, after a day’s heat, fell dusty.”
    ― T.E. Lawrence, Seven Pillars of Wisdom: A Triumph

  9. #1569
    Contributor
    Join Date
    12 Oct 06
    Posts
    678
    This might belong in the political forum, but is turkey still on the list to receive F-35's?

  10. #1570
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
    Join Date
    08 Aug 13
    Location
    Kansas City, United States
    Posts
    1,282
    Quote Originally Posted by bfng3569 View Post
    This might belong in the political forum, but is turkey still on the list to receive F-35's?
    As far as I can see they still are. They placed their first order in 2014 to be delivered in 2018 and placed an order for a 2nd batch in October of 2016 for delivery in 2021.

    Which isn't to say that delivery couldn't be halted à la Iran in 1979 if relations deteriorate.

  11. #1571
    Global Moderator
    Comrade Commissar
    TopHatter's Avatar
    Join Date
    03 Sep 03
    Posts
    15,914
    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post

    Anotar,

    You are new here so I will give you a pass.

    For a second there I thought this was going to go down....

    Name:  Capture.JPG
Views: 290
Size:  47.2 KB
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  12. #1572
    Global Moderator
    Military Professional
    Defense Professional
    Albany Rifles's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Apr 07
    Location
    Prince George, VA
    Posts
    8,362
    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    For a second there I thought this was going to go down....

    Name:  Capture.JPG
Views: 290
Size:  47.2 KB
    I don't think he was wearing a down vest...
    “We had been hopelessly labouring to plough waste lands; to make nationality grow in a place full of the certainty of God… Among the tribes our creed could be only like the desert grass – a beautiful swift seeming of spring; which, after a day’s heat, fell dusty.”
    ― T.E. Lawrence, Seven Pillars of Wisdom: A Triumph

  13. #1573
    Global Moderator
    Comrade Commissar
    TopHatter's Avatar
    Join Date
    03 Sep 03
    Posts
    15,914
    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    I don't think he was wearing a down vest...
    That was a life preserver.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  14. #1574
    Global Moderator
    Military Professional
    Defense Professional
    Albany Rifles's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Apr 07
    Location
    Prince George, VA
    Posts
    8,362
    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    That was a life preserver.
    Coast Guard?
    “We had been hopelessly labouring to plough waste lands; to make nationality grow in a place full of the certainty of God… Among the tribes our creed could be only like the desert grass – a beautiful swift seeming of spring; which, after a day’s heat, fell dusty.”
    ― T.E. Lawrence, Seven Pillars of Wisdom: A Triumph

  15. #1575
    Global Moderator
    Comrade Commissar
    TopHatter's Avatar
    Join Date
    03 Sep 03
    Posts
    15,914
    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Coast Guard?
    He just got into port
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 11 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 11 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Sig P250, Part 2
    By GraniteForge in forum Small Arms and Personal Weapons
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 26 Nov 08,, 01:04
  2. What part do you disagree with?
    By Roosveltrepub in forum American Politics & Economy
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 22 Apr 08,, 17:52
  3. Who wants to be a part?
    By joey2 in forum International Politics
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 22 Nov 06,, 01:31
  4. I did my part
    By bren in forum Military Aviation
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08 Nov 06,, 11:49

Share this thread with friends:

Share this thread with friends:

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •