Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What is up with the F-35? Part II

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
    So we should have screwed the US Navy, USMC, Royal Navy, Royal Air Force and the Italian Navy for more Raptors?

    How exactly would that have been a good thing?
    I maintain that the Marines have little/no need for a stealth light bomber. The C model doesn't appear to be a complete money pit like it's VSTOL sibling. I'll be surprised if the Royal Navy buys anywhere near what they actually need to make it a viable portion of their force, same for the RAF. I have no idea what the Italians need.

    Originally posted by Chunder View Post
    Well, none of your allies will be coughing up for the F-22, because they can't.

    Allegedly, this option has already been discussed - and even though it hasn't made the news, we certainly can deduct the Japanese wanted this route.

    The F-22, even a dumbed down version, wasn't allowed to your closest allies, period.

    Are you prepared to relinquish the World Fighter market to the Europeans?

    Edit, additionally, your allies are going to have to fund all the development for the dumbed down F-22, because it isn't a plug and play system. I.E, all that C3I, that the F-35 program contributes to the F-22 program, will have to be funded by them, specifically for their variant of the F-22.

    It's more than just the airframe.
    You can't just dumb-down the Raptor for export. It's more thoroughly integrated than anything else I've ever seen. It's not just a bunch of systems bolted to an airframe.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Chunder View Post
      Well, none of your allies will be coughing up for the F-22, because they can't.
      I wasn't suggesting trying to sell the F-22, even a "dumbed-down" version; Congress has already put the kibosh on that. I was only thinking of our own (US) armed forces.

      Originally posted by Chunder View Post
      Are you prepared to relinquish the World Fighter market to the Europeans?
      We have pretty much done that already; nobody (except you guys) are buying the Super Bug, the F-15E/SE series is too expensive (or too old) for most countries, and we're five years behind schedule on the F-35/JSF.
      "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Stitch View Post
        We have pretty much done that already; nobody (except you guys) are buying the Super Bug, the F-15E/SE series is too expensive (or too old) for most countries, and we're five years behind schedule on the F-35/JSF.
        Beg to Differ, there are 10 Partners with their hands in the pie.

        Not assuming pull outs, or additional buyers in addition to that. I.E, Japan, Korea, Spain...
        Ego Numquam

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Jimmy View Post
          You can't just dumb-down the Raptor for export. It's more thoroughly integrated than anything else I've ever seen. It's not just a bunch of systems bolted to an airframe.
          I thought I mentioned that.

          1. It isn't for sale.
          2. If it was for sale, they would be developing a specific variant.

          3. If there wasn't an F-35, and the USAF only bought Raptors, you would relinquish the fighter market to the Europeans.
          Ego Numquam

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Chunder View Post
            I thought I mentioned that.

            1. It isn't for sale.
            2. If it was for sale, they would be developing a specific variant.

            3. If there wasn't an F-35, and the USAF only bought Raptors, you would relinquish the fighter market to the Europeans.
            The answer to 2 is that they did, with an air to ground capability. It's called the F-35A.

            The Europeans are still competing against the Hornet family.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Jimmy View Post
              I maintain that the Marines have little/no need for a stealth light bomber. The C model doesn't appear to be a complete money pit like it's VSTOL sibling. I'll be surprised if the Royal Navy buys anywhere near what they actually need to make it a viable portion of their force, same for the RAF. I have no idea what the Italians need.
              That depends on what roles and missions the Marine Corps has.

              In its current form there is a need for F-35Bs. The AF and Nave are not always around

              Comment


              • I also don't think that the Marines truly need a light, stealth CAS/attack aircraft when you consider the Marines and their mission alone. However, the need, or at least the benefit of having a Marine F-35 increases when considered on the large scale - things like Air/Sea Battle. Is the F-35 needed for CAS in Iraq/Afganistan- no, give me an A-10. What about an LHD in the Pacific launching F-35s that are buildings SA and performing EW in places that the USAF can't easily reach and when there is no CVN around?

                Winning the Air/Sea Battle | SLDInfo

                Pacific Strategy XVII: The Way Ahead | SLDInfo

                The Littoral Combat Ship and the Newly Enabled ARG | SLDInfo

                Augmenting the Seabase: 21st Century Efficiencies | SLDInfo

                As gun grape mentioned, the USAF and USN may not always be everywhere that marines will. Many F-35 in the hands of many US services and many allies is a huge force multiplier for building SA across wide areas. Without that SA, 21st century battles against a peer would be much harder. An F-35 with it's stealth, SA, and EW flying off LHDs and from Marine bases in addition to the USN and USAF assets all integrating together with Ships, Subs, Satellites, UAVs, etc could build an electronic picture unprecedented today. I think the true value of the F-35 for the Marines is really only understood from this perspective. Just me 2 cents.
                No One Kicks A$! Without Tanker Gas

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Jimmy View Post
                  The answer to 2 is that they did, with an air to ground capability. It's called the F-35A.
                  The speculation was in favour of giving up F-35 production, to soley equip the USAF with the F-22.

                  The Europeans are still competing against the Hornet family.
                  And that's all the USN will be getting under such a scenario.

                  So far, they are doing reasonable against the Super Hornet, they would do a lot better if there was no F-35 under the suggested scenario.
                  Ego Numquam

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Phoenix10 View Post
                    I also don't think that the Marines truly need a light, stealth CAS/attack aircraft when you consider the Marines and their mission alone. .
                    When you get to the pure Marine Corps specific missions, thats when you really need the F-35.

                    When fighting as a combined Joint Forces team member, the F-35B is a waste of money. We don't need it to bomb terrorist in the gan.

                    When the 22d MEU (SOC) is evacuating the Embassy in BumPhuck, Middle of nowhere because the country went to Hell in a Handbasket during the surprise Military Coup 12 hours ago, they need the F-35B.

                    NEOs and Show Of Force till the Navy can park a CVN nearby is the Marine Corps money making mission.
                    Last edited by Gun Grape; 11 Dec 11,, 00:25.

                    Comment


                    • And in the meantime they're bleeding DOD's acquisitions budget dry. Is the F-35 worth a few tens of thousands of experienced personnel? Is it worth maintaining a 50-year old air superiority fighter? A 75-year old bomber fleet? 40-year old MBTs?

                      Can the F-35B be a useful addition to the USMC? Of course (assuming it ever pans out). Is it WORTH it? Hell no. This thing is everything the F-22's critics claimed, the only difference is cutting the AF and Navy are more politically acceptable in a ground war climate.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Jimmy View Post
                        This thing is everything the F-22's critics claimed, the only difference is cutting the AF and Navy are more politically acceptable in a ground war climate.
                        Case in point, it's going through the same development issues the F-22 had, 11 years ago.

                        Though it's a little past the advantages of a premature cancellation right now isn't it?
                        Ego Numquam

                        Comment


                        • Gun Grape Reply

                          "...When the 22d MEU (SOC) is evacuating the Embassy in BumPhuck, Middle of nowhere because the country went to Hell in a Handbasket during the surprise Military Coup 12 hours ago, they need the F-35B.

                          NEOs and Show Of Force till the Navy can park a CVN nearby is the Marine Corps money making mission."


                          If that's the rationale then I'd submit the F-35B isn't needed by the Corps unless the plethora of BumPhucks have operative air defense networks requiring those capabilities.

                          Heretofore that's NEVER been the case.
                          "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                          "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                          Comment


                          • S2

                            Originally posted by S2 View Post
                            "...When the 22d MEU (SOC) is evacuating the Embassy in BumPhuck, Middle of nowhere because the country went to Hell in a Handbasket during the surprise Military Coup 12 hours ago, they need the F-35B.

                            NEOs and Show Of Force till the Navy can park a CVN nearby is the Marine Corps money making mission."


                            If that's the rationale then I'd submit the F-35B isn't needed by the Corps unless the plethora of BumPhucks have operative air defense networks requiring those capabilities.

                            Heretofore that's NEVER been the case.
                            Even when you consider teh F35 as an ISR platform? I see the F35 in the mix of a MEU more in that typew of role with teh addedbenefit of acting as a stike platform if the need arises. The more I learn about the F35 and its ability to gather and disseminate information teh more impressed I am.

                            Regards

                            Arty
                            "Admit nothing, deny everything, make counter-accusations".- Motto of the Gun Crew who have just done something incredibly stupid!!!!

                            Comment


                            • Even when you consider teh F35 as an ISR platform? I see the F35 in the mix of a MEU more in that typew of role with teh addedbenefit of acting as a stike platform if the need arises. The more I learn about the F35 and its ability to gather and disseminate information teh more impressed I am.

                              Regards

                              Arty

                              Is it WORTH it? Hell no. This thing is everything the F-22's critics claimed, the only difference is cutting the AF and Navy are more politically acceptable in a ground war climate.

                              Jimmy
                              1. Arty, I am not disagreeing with you...but my question goes to could a lot of those capabilities be palced in more cost efficient drone airframes?

                              2. Jimmy, Okay, so you are an airpower advocate. Are you saying the USMC needs to give up a weapon system which goes to its core abilities to meet the Air Force's needs? When the Marines need a dedicated CAS asset are they going to be able to turn to the Air Force? I don't think so.
                              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                              Mark Twain

                              Comment


                              • AR,

                                Could you have a UAS with the ISR capabilites of the F35B? Well I would have to say yes you probably could. IS it anywhere in the pipeline? Not to my knowledge.

                                The only UAS I am aware of capable of operating of an LHD or LPD class vessel is the Fire Scout and it sure as heck isnt going to provde teh capabilities of an F35B in the ISR field.

                                At teh end of the day the AV8"s are a key component of what a MEU brings to teh fight. The USMC needs that fixed wing support to fulfill its mission as currently mandated. I dont know what options other than teh F35B are available to support the USMC's need. New Build AV8's? I really dont think so.

                                Relying on Hornet/Shornets flying off of CVN's? Nope, cant be guaranteed when considering the very specifc requirements of a MEU.

                                So the way I see it teh F35B kills 2 bird with 1 stone for teh USMC. A fantastic ISR platform which will act as a force enabler/magnifyer, and a replacement for teh aging AV8's which simply HAVE to be replaced if we intend teh USMC to maintain the capabilites it currently has.

                                However haveing sad all this I am more than open to teh possibility that I have got it all totally wrong and am talking out my ass :)

                                Please correct/enlighten as required

                                Regards

                                Arty
                                "Admit nothing, deny everything, make counter-accusations".- Motto of the Gun Crew who have just done something incredibly stupid!!!!

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X