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WWII Bomber comparison I Flying Fortress vs Lancaster

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  • #16
    Originally posted by 1979 View Post
    I would too, if I'm to use the 8325 shot down figure :

    but that would mean that the germans shot down more Lancaster's than the british could build.

    overall it seams that the average crew could survive 48 missions in the LANCASTER and 60 missions in B17.
    but in 1943 the chances were much slimmer.
    Wow dyslexia for the FAIL, my apologies.

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    • #17
      Regardless of the numbers, it was horrendously dangerous for all the strategic bombers. No, Mr. Baldwin, the bombers WILL NOT always get through... at least not without crippling casualties.

      I've often wondered if the Luftwaffe pilots felt any sort of pang while cutting these lumbering targets to pieces. Probably not, considering what the bombers were doing to their cities. I'll suspect there was respect for their bravery, though.

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      • #18
        from what i've read, most of the german civvies understandably...not happy with the pilots they captured after bailing.
        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Chogy View Post
          Probably not, considering what the bombers were doing to their cities.
          Indeed, Chogy, but I'm sure the inhabitants of London, Rotterdam, Belgrade and Guernica (amongst others) earlier had much the same feelings.

          Churchill had watched a film of Germany being bombed and asked "Are we beasts? Are we taking this too far?"

          Richard Casey, an Australian in his War Cabinet, replied along the lines of we hadn't started it, and that it was us or them.

          Arthur 'Bomber' Harris famously defended his so-called 'strategy' with: "They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind."
          Last edited by clackers; 12 Apr 11,, 13:59.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by clackers View Post
            Arthur 'Bomber' Harris famously defended his so-called 'strategy' with: "They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind."
            And the natural evolution of this was the ultimate application of the bomber in Japan. Lip service was played (somewhat) to the military nature of the targets, and there was an element of truth to it, but in retrospect, it feels like a band-aid on a disembowelment.

            Was WW2 a total war? Was the Japanese schoolteacher contributing to the war effort by molding young minds? Was the post man also doing so because some of his mail was military? Did this make them targets? We've pondered stuff like this for decades and there's no easy answer.

            It came down to "who dies, us or them" and chose them. Can't blame the allied leadership in 1945.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Chogy View Post

              Was WW2 a total war? Was the Japanese schoolteacher contributing to the war effort by molding young minds? Was the post man also doing so because some of his mail was military? Did this make them targets? We've pondered stuff like this for decades and there's no easy answer.
              But if their deaths helped end the war by crushing their nations will to resist, how many lives were ultimately saved by avoiding an invasion where Japan was preparing for national suicide. How many boomers and kids of boomers would not be here today?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by zraver View Post
                But if their deaths helped end the war by crushing their nations will to resist, how many lives were ultimately saved by avoiding an invasion where Japan was preparing for national suicide. How many boomers and kids of boomers would not be here today?
                I always say, watch the Star Trek episode called "A Taste of Armageddon."

                Wars have to be cruel, ugly, dangerous, brutal, bloody, murderous, lest we find them too convenient.
                "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                  I always say, watch the Star Trek episode called "A Taste of Armageddon."

                  Wars have to be cruel, ugly, dangerous, brutal, bloody, murderous, lest we find them too convenient.
                  One of my favorite sci-fi genres is Battletech. Part of the genres storylien is a past called the Age of War when formal and complex rules made war common place. While it limited the damge from any one battle, it insured the fighting never ended so the combined devestation surpassed total wars in ultimate death counts and also set the stage for the utter devestation of the Succession Wars when the rules were formally abandoned and no one knew what war was really like.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by zraver View Post
                    But if their deaths helped end the war by crushing their nations will to resist, how many lives were ultimately saved by avoiding an invasion where Japan was preparing for national suicide. How many boomers and kids of boomers would not be here today?
                    Believe me, I am on board with "The lesser of two weevils" as Captain Aubrey would joke. And I refer not just to the nuclear attacks, but to the overall air campaign against population centers, in Germany as well as Japan.

                    There is a popular trend these days to make the value of enemy combatants (and civilians) equivalent to our own. We could have eliminated all resistance in Fallujah with a handful of B-52 sorties. Instead, we expended blood to do the same with fewer enemy casualties. I don't agree with this concept... but there's no easy answer, and a price to pay, politically.

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                    • #25
                      i've seen conflicting evidence for the utility of carpet bombing in terms of breaking enemy morale. in the case of germany, civilian deaths, if anything, hardened the german populace. same with the result of the limited german bombing of the UK, and the american bombing of japan.

                      OTOH, the vast number of deaths caused by the bombing certainly made the post-war reconstruction easier. most of the civilians knew the power of Allied force and could not deceive themselves that they lost due to a stab in the back.
                      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by astralis View Post
                        i've seen conflicting evidence for the utility of carpet bombing in terms of breaking enemy morale. in the case of germany, civilian deaths, if anything, hardened the german populace. same with the result of the limited german bombing of the UK, and the american bombing of japan.
                        To a point, it certainly made the war a shared sacrifice. However, I think when the destruction of the bombing was combined with the threat of famine the morale began to break. When the US escort fighters wrecked the German rail system and the USN subs and USAAF mining ops wrecked Japan's merchant marine and forced the civilians to face the prospect of hungry babies the morale broke and did so rapidly. Lack of food is such a primal fear it seems to break down loyalties even when other things wont.

                        OTOH, the vast number of deaths caused by the bombing certainly made the post-war reconstruction easier. most of the civilians knew the power of Allied force and could not deceive themselves that they lost due to a stab in the back.
                        In the case of Germany I would agree with you. However I am not sure that fits with Japan. Japan had made an art of denying war guilt.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by astralis View Post
                          OTOH, the vast number of deaths caused by the bombing certainly made the post-war reconstruction easier. most of the civilians knew the power of Allied force and could not deceive themselves that they lost due to a stab in the back.
                          The threat of genocide...ah the good ol' days when a war was fought like a war, not a "kinetic military operation."
                          "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                          • #28
                            I can confirm that it was the Lancaster that hogged the glory in postwar UK. They were still flying as the Lancastrian transport in the 1950s and we adored to see them

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by jonnybottle View Post
                              I can confirm that it was the Lancaster that hogged the glory in postwar UK. They were still flying as the Lancastrian transport in the 1950s and we adored to see them
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                              • #30
                                Chogy,

                                One point I missed a year ago on these discussions regarding Japan and the Twentieth Air Force's campaign agaionst the population centers.

                                I don't have the stats at hand but an astounding number of Jaanese war industry was truly a cottage industry with "mom and pop" operations all throguhout metropolitan and "civilian" areas. The B-29s had that intelligence and bombed accordingly.

                                I have no qualms with what we did.
                                “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
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