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Thread: Libya updates

  1. #271
    Contributor RoccoR's Avatar
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    Red Team, et al,

    It is not so an unpredictable outcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Team View Post
    So....anyone placing bets on Assad and Ahmadenijad?
    (COMMENT)

    If there is a lesson to be learned by the dictators (from the outcome of Hosni Mubarak, and Muammar Gaddafi) is that, you either escape early, or crush the opposition in the very beginning (no quarter). Both Mubarak and his wife had heart attacks immediately after arrest and interrogation. We've just seen what has happened to Gaddafi. I think it is safe to say that the rebels/opposition will show no mercy.

    President Ahmadenijad is not in the same category as President Assad. President Ahmadenijad (and the rest of Iran) has to contend The Supreme Leader (Ayatollah Ali Khamenei). Presient Assad is the defacto King of Syria. It is a big difference. And if I was Assad, and intended to stay, I would become 10 times more ruthless than demonstrated to date.

    Most Respectfully,
    R

  2. #272
    Senior Contributor Dago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoccoR View Post
    Red Team, et al,

    It is not so an unpredictable outcome.

    (COMMENT)

    If there is a lesson to be learned by the dictators (from the outcome of Hosni Mubarak, and Muammar Gaddafi) is that, you either escape early, or crush the opposition in the very beginning (no quarter). Both Mubarak and his wife had heart attacks immediately after arrest and interrogation. We've just seen what has happened to Gaddafi. I think it is safe to say that the rebels/opposition will show no mercy.

    President Ahmadenijad is not in the same category as President Assad. President Ahmadenijad (and the rest of Iran) has to contend The Supreme Leader (Ayatollah Ali Khamenei). Presient Assad is the defacto King of Syria. It is a big difference. And if I was Assad, and intended to stay, I would become 10 times more ruthless than demonstrated to date.

    Most Respectfully,
    R
    He isn't in that same category, as of yet. What has happened in Libya, you had large scale defections of military. And then further alienation bringing in foreigners. Although, once the Government fell apart and Benghazi fell. As of now, you don't see that happening in Syria. There are some defections, but they are so small. You don't see Ministers of Defense resigning etc etc...

  3. #273
    Banned tankie's Avatar
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    RIP Yvonne Fletcher , RIP Lockerbie victims , RIP all killed by the IRA supplied with Gaddafi semtex ,RIP ALL who were killed by his regime .

    Fony Bliar your handshake will haunt you forever you fony bastard ,Gaddafi ducks dead and died begging in a sewer ,poetic justice for a rat , rot in hell .
    Last edited by tankie; 20 Oct 11, at 22:30.

  4. #274
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    Make no mistake Tankie the Libyans wouldn't have got rid of Gaddafi without us and the Frogs et al. You think we'd have done the same if he'd had WMD? No, Libya is a very different case from Iran and Syria.

  5. #275
    In Memoriam Military Professional dave lukins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Make no mistake Tankie the Libyans wouldn't have got rid of Gaddafi without us and the Frogs et al. You think we'd have done the same if he'd had WMD? No, Libya is a very different case from Iran and Syria.
    The chances of the UK getting involved in the Syrian killings the same way, and for the same reasons as protecting the civilian population, is nil

  6. #276
    In Memoriam Military Professional dave lukins's Avatar
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    By the By..there are now half a dozen Olympic tickets going for grabs now the Gadaffi family don't need them. How they were offered to them in the first place is open to abuse, in mean question.

  7. #277
    Officer of Engineers
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    Great. Now, I have to listen to the birdbrains on how they won another war.

  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave lukins View Post
    now the Gadaffi family don't need them.
    Eh, his wife, ex-wife, at least three kids, four or five in-laws, and probably around a dozen grandkids are all still around. Those half dozen tickets won't be enough for them alone.

  9. #279
    In Memoriam Military Professional dave lukins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    Eh, his wife, ex-wife, at least three kids, four or five in-laws, and probably around a dozen grandkids are all still around. Those half dozen tickets won't be enough for them alone.
    Somehow I don't think they will be invited in a hurry. The tickets of course could be used by the new regime which may not be a bad idea.

  10. #280
    Contributor RoccoR's Avatar
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    Officer of Engineers,

    Yes, that is the inevitability in a competitive outcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Great. Now, I have to listen to the birdbrains on how they won another war.
    (QUESTION)

    I often wonder, given the nature of the winners, what the new government will resemble?

    Most Respectfully,
    R

  11. #281
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Switzerland,of course.Finland in the worst case scenario.

    I agree with you 100% about Assad becoming more determined and ruthless.And even more.Lynching leaders happens,but it's distaseful.Britain of the old didn't hanged Cetswayo from the first tree,nor the US killed Sitting Bull or Geronimo on the sight.Defeated leaders could expect and did received corteous treatment,even if their actions,or those of their subordinates weren't always savory.Yet,there's a tendency these days to kill them.Not good for civilization as a whole and very impractical.The right premise for a slaughter.Nobody will give up.Thus,Stalin's practice of shooting every subordinate that blinks the wrong way in order to ensure obedience will return.It's the inevitable consequence.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  12. #282
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  13. #283
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoccoR View Post
    (QUESTION)

    I often wonder, given the nature of the winners, what the new government will resemble?

    Most Respectfully,
    R
    Transitional Leader Calls For Sharia Law As Country Celebrates Liberation | Fox News

    Transitional Leader Calls for Sharia Law as Country Celebrates Liberation

    Published October 23, 2011
    | FoxNews.com

    The transitional government leader Mustafa Abdul-Jalil called on Libyans to show "patience, honesty and tolerance" and eschew hatred as they embark on rebuilding the country at the end of an 8-month civil war.

    Abdul-Jalil set out a vision for the post-Qaddafi future with an Islamist tint, saying that Islamic Sharia law would be the "basic source" of legislation in the country and that existing laws that contradict the teachings of Islam would be nullified.

    In a gesture that showed his own piety, he urged Libyans not to express their joy by firing in the air, but rather to chant "Allahu Akbar," or God is Great. He then stepped aside and knelt to offer a brief prayer of thanks.

    "This revolution was looked after by God to achieve victory," he told the crowd at the declaration ceremony in the eastern city of Benghazi, the birthplace of the uprising against Qaddafi began. He thanked those who fell in the fight against Qaddafi's forces. "This revolution began peacefully to demand the minimum of legitimate rights, but it was met by excessive violence."

    Tens of thousands gathered in the eastern city of Benghazi Sunday as Libya's transitional leader declared his country's liberation, three days after ousted dictator Muammar Qaddafi was captured and killed.

    President Obama congratulated Libya on their declaration of liberation.

    "After four decades of brutal dictatorship and eight months of deadly conflict, the Libyan people can now celebrate their freedom and the beginning of a new era of promise," Obama said in a statement.

    "We look forward to working with the NTC and an empowered transitional government as they prepare for the country's first free and fair elections," Obama said.

    The liberation celebration was clouded, however, by mounting calls for an investigation into whether Qaddafi was executed while in custody.

    An autopsy confirmed that Qaddafi died from a gunshot to the head, Libya's chief pathologist, Dr. Othman al-Zintani, said hours before the liberation declaration was to start the clock on a transition to democracy.

    However, the pathologist said he would not disclose further details or elaborate on Qaddafi's final moments, saying he would first deliver a full report to the attorney general. Libya's acting prime minister said he would not oppose an investigation, but cited an official reporting saying a wounded Qaddafi was killed in cross-fire following his capture.

    U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and Britain's new defense secretary, Philip Hammond, said a full investigation is necessary.

    The Libyan revolutionaries' image had been "a little bit stained" by Qaddafi's death, Hammond said Sunday, adding that the new government "will want to get to the bottom of it in a way that rebuilds and cleanses that reputation."

    "It's certainly not the way we do things," Hammond told BBC television. "We would have liked to see Col. Qaddafi going on trial to answer for his misdeeds."

    Clinton told NBC's "Meet the Press" that she backs a proposal that the United Nations investigate Qaddafi's death and that Libya's National Transitional Council look into the circumstances, too.

    The 69-year-old Qaddafi was captured wounded, but alive Thursday in his hometown of Sirte, the last city to fall to revolutionary forces. Bloody images of Qaddafi being taunted and beaten by his captors have raised questions about whether he was killed in crossfire as suggested by government officials or deliberately executed.

    Qaddafi's body has been on public display in a commercial freezer in a shopping center in the port city of Misrata, which suffered from a bloody siege by regime forces that instilled a virulent hatred for the dictator in Misrata's residents. People have lined up for days to view the body, which was laid out on a mattress on the freezer floor. The bodies of Qaddafi's son Muatassim and his ex-defense minister Abu Bakr Younis also were put on display, and people wearing surgical masks have filed past, snapping photos of the bodies.

    The New York-based group Human Rights Watch, which viewed the bodies, said video footage, photos and other information it obtained "indicate that they might have been executed after being detained."

    "Finding out how they died matters," said Sarah Leah Whitson of Human Rights Watch. "It will set the tone for whether the new Libya will be ruled by law or by summary violence."

    The Syrian-based Al-Rai TV station, which has served as a mouthpiece for the Qaddafi clan, said the dictator's wife, Safiya, also demanded an investigation.

    "I am proud of the bravery of my husband, Muammar Qaddafi, the holy warrior, and my sons who confronted the aggression of 40 countries over the past six months," the station quoted the widow as saying in a statement.

    Jibril, the acting Libyan prime minister, said he would not oppose an inquiry into Qaddafi's death, but that there is "no reason" to doubt the credibility of an official report that the ousted leader died in cross-fire.

    "Have you seen a video of somebody killing him? I haven't seen any video tape or mobile film that shows somebody is killing Qaddafi," Jibril told reporters in Jordan where he was attending an international economic conference.

    "What I told the press several times ... (is) that coroner says in the medical report that he (Qaddafi) was already wounded, taken out, put in that truck and on the way to the field hospital there was cross-fire from both sides," Jibril said. Jibril said it's unclear whether the fatal bullet was fired by loyalists or revolutionary forces.

    The vast majority of Libyans seemed unconcerned about the circumstances of the hated leader's death, but rather was relieved the country's ruler of 42 years was gone, clearing the way for a new beginning.

    "If he (Qaddafi) was taken to court, this would create more chaos, and would encourage his supporters," said Salah Zlitni, 31, who owns a pizza parlor in downtown Tripoli. "Now it's over."

    The long-awaited declaration of liberation starts the clock on Libya's transition to democracy. The transitional leadership has said it would declare a new interim government within a month of liberation and elections for a constitutional assembly within eight months, to be followed by votes for a parliament and president within a year.

    At the ceremony in Benghazi, Abdul-Jalil outlined several changes to align with Islamic law.

    "This revolution was looked after by God to achieve victory," he said.

    Abdul-Jalil said new banks would be set up to follow the Islamic banking system, which bans charging interest as a practice deemed usury. For the time being, he said interest would be canceled from any personal loans already taken out and less than $7,500.

    He also announced the annulment of an existing family law that limits the number of wives Libyan can take, contradicting the provision in the Muslim holy book, the Quran, that allows men up to four wives.

    And he urged Libyans to hand back money or property taken during the civil war.

    Abdul-Jalil thanked those who fought and fell in the fight against Qaddafi's forces.

    "They are somewhere better than here, with God," he said.

    The Associated Press contributed to this report.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  14. #284
    Contributor RoccoR's Avatar
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    gunnut, et al,

    So, how is this any better, overall, than what we had before we supported intervention and democracy?

    (QUESTION)

    What countries, currently under the influence of Sharia Law (AKA: Islamic Law) are not troubled countries?

    I think we need to make a list of which countries, under Sharia Law, are productive nations, and advancing into the 21st Century; and which one's have shown to be a troubled government, retarding the advancement of the people.

    This way, we have some reasonable expectation as to the outcome.

    In the mean time, we (the US) should not be involved in the Arab Spring Movement. We may, inadvertently, be supporting the establishment of failed states. We simply don't understand the alternatives. I don't think we want to be responsible (in any way) for setting the conditions that allow the rise of a radical cleric in control of a secular state.

    Most Respectfully,
    R

  15. #285
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoccoR View Post
    gunnut, et al,

    So, how is this any better, overall, than what we had before we supported intervention and democracy?

    (QUESTION)

    What countries, currently under the influence of Sharia Law (AKA: Islamic Law) are not troubled countries?

    I think we need to make a list of which countries, under Sharia Law, are productive nations, and advancing into the 21st Century; and which one's have shown to be a troubled government, retarding the advancement of the people.

    This way, we have some reasonable expectation as to the outcome.

    In the mean time, we (the US) should not be involved in the Arab Spring Movement. We may, inadvertently, be supporting the establishment of failed states. We simply don't understand the alternatives. I don't think we want to be responsible (in any way) for setting the conditions that allow the rise of a radical cleric in control of a secular state.

    Most Respectfully,
    R
    Sir you are preaching to the choir here. We should not intervene in the uprisings in various middle eastern countries. Like you said, we don't know the incoming regime should the uprisings succeed like that have in Egypt and Libya. Gaddhafi was no saint but at least in recent years he has renounced terrorism and tried to work with the west in exchanged for not getting invaded by GW "Mad Cowboy" Bush.

    He did not see the rising of The Obama...
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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