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  • Private security companies........ yes or no?

    The UK private security guards lured to Iraq

    Former soldier-turned-private security guard Danny Fitzsimons has been sentenced to 20 years in an Iraqi jail after being found guilty of murdering two colleagues in Iraq. But for the thousands of private guards still operating there, life remains defined by pressure.

    BBC News - The UK private security guards lured to Iraq

    Contractor gets life sentence in Iraq - Middle East, World - The Independent

    Danny Fitzsimons, from Greater Manchester, was a former paratrooper. The military was in his blood, said colleagues, though others described him as a "loose cannon". He had been working in security for a couple of years.
    His family say he had been suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder after tours of Kosovo and Iraq.

    They also say ArmorGroup took him on without carrying out a full medical assessment
    The company admitted his screening was not completed in line with its procedures but claimed Fitzsimons falsified information during the recruitment process
    Former SAS soldiers in charge of others would earn about £600 a day, he explained, and ex-soldiers about £150 to £250 a day tax-free - up to seven times a British soldier's wage
    There are no official figures for the death toll among private security contractors
    Big business now, and accepting there are good and bad everywhere, but should legitimate Governments be using or supporting the use of these companies, given the nature of our operations now and (our hopes for) future intent?

    International Code of Conduct for private security providers - IHRB Guest Blogs

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    Should raw analytical data ever be passed to policy makers?

  • #2
    Nothing changes, RSM. How many of ours had we thrown out during the course of Yugoslavia only to find them in Serb/Croat/Bosnian uniforms months afterwards?

    I cannot verify this but I've got a story of two corpses shipped by to the QOR of C in Toronto by South Africa because it was the last known address that they had.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      Nothing changes, RSM. How many of ours had we thrown out during the course of Yugoslavia only to find them in Serb/Croat/Bosnian uniforms months afterwards?

      I cannot verify this but I've got a story of two corpses shipped by to the QOR of C in Toronto by South Africa because it was the last known address that they had.
      You are right Sir, what surprised me was the pay scale ....if that is accurately quoted above ............. I was offered more than that to go to the Balkans in the 90s.... mind you the offer was not from a "legitimate government approved contractor".....
      sigpicFEAR NAUGHT

      Should raw analytical data ever be passed to policy makers?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by T_igger_cs_30 View Post
        You are right Sir, what surprised me was the pay scale ....if that is accurately quoted above ............. I was offered more than that to go to the Balkans in the 90s.... mind you the offer was not from a "legitimate government approved contractor".....
        I rather take my pay in the Queen`s penny than by firing squad copper.

        Yeah, that caught my eye too. Guys were shot once the `government` can`t afford them anymore.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
          I cannot verify this but I've got a story of two corpses shipped by to the QOR of C in Toronto by South Africa because it was the last known address that they had.
          I've heard of wallets being put in the mail, no return. The hope was at least somebody would know they're not coming back.



          by T_igger_cs_30
          I was offered more than that to go to the Balkans in the 90s.... mind you the offer was not from a "legitimate government approved contractor".....

          Once I was offered a job that payed only marginally more than the one I had in the States. There was a pretty good "bonus" but those seem have a habit of evaporating.
          Reddite igitur quae sunt Caesaris Caesari et quae sunt Dei Deo
          (Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's)

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          • #6
            Originally posted by sappersgt View Post
            Once I was offered a job that payed only marginally more than the one I had in the States. There was a pretty good "bonus" but those seem have a habit of evaporating.
            Ah the old bonus ploy, into a bank account of your choosing when job done ............ odds way in there favour :Dancing-Banana:.....not bloody likely.............:)
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            Should raw analytical data ever be passed to policy makers?

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            • #7
              What's the best payment method,if I may ask?
              Those who know don't speak
              He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                What's the best payment method,if I may ask?
                well depends on what you are talking...............I guess most guys now can get direct deposit, seeing as how its mostly "legit" ...
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                Should raw analytical data ever be passed to policy makers?

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                • #9
                  I’ll die fighting loathsome Iraqis, says Briton jailed for murder

                  The Times - March 1 2011 12:01AM

                  Fitzsimons arriving for sentencing.


                  After spending more than 18 months detained with the “loathsome race” of Iraqis, Daniel Fitzsimons, a former British security guard sentenced to 20 years in a Baghdad jail for double murder, said that he would probably die fighting militias in prison.

                  OH yes, definately well vetted!

                  Fitzsimons was arrested in 2009 after shooting dead Paul McGuigan, a fellow Briton, and Darren Hoare, an Australian, after a drunken row while working for ArmorGroup, a security company in Baghdad’s Green Zone. Mr McGuigan had been due to marry his pregnant fiancée.

                  Fitzsimons, speaking to The Times by telephone after he was sentenced, described his life in prison as “hell on earth”, living in a police station cell of 6sq m with up to 20 criminals and insurgents.

                  “I did a lot of fighting in my cell with these people,” he said, adding that even after 18 months he could not get used to Iraqis. He spent time in jail in the UK when charged with assault, for which he was acquitted, in 2005 or 2006, and later in 2009 when charged with assaulting three Pakistani youths, after which he skipped bail and returned to Iraq.

                  The fact he lied on his application seems strange does it not

                  “The more I’ve been in here the more I can’t stand it,” he said. “Their habits, their hygiene, the two-facedness of them. They’re not men. In a British jail if you speak to the police you’re a rat, these people speak to the police with no shame. They’re cowardly, they’re a very loathsome race of people.” He said that liberals in Britain may disagree, adding: “That’s easy to say from an armchair.”
                  An Iraqi guard, Arkan Mahdi Saleh, was shot in the legs during the attack. Under Iraqi law he is entitled to compensation from the Fitzsimons family. He said that he rejected an offer of £6,000 as too little.

                  The lawyer for Fitzsimons said that he was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. He had uncovered mass graves in former Yugoslavia and watched a friend burn to death in Iraq.

                  He is likely to be transferred to Rusafa jail in Baghdad, which houses many militants who fought against coalition forces during the Iraq war.

                  mmm sure he will be made welcome

                  Tareq Harb, for the defence, said that he hoped to be able to transfer Fitzsimons to a British prison

                  Inside story

                  •An estimated 30,000 detainees remain in custody in Iraq but the Government does not provide official records

                  •The UN Assistance Mission for Iraq visited a prison in 2008 and found it so crowded that detainees had to sleep in shifts

                  •Seven prisoners died in May last year from asphyxiation when nearly 100 detainees were forced into two vans, which were designed to carry only 20 people each, and driven to a prison more than an hour away

                  •Earlier this month Human Rights Watch disclosed the existence of a secret jail in Baghdad where detainees were said to be tortured by elite forces controlled by Nouri al-Maliki, the Prime Minister

                  Source: Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by sappersgt View Post
                    Once I was offered a job that payed only marginally more than the one I had in the States. There was a pretty good "bonus" but those seem have a habit of evaporating.
                    Same here. And after meeting some of the people I would be working with, the term "criminally insane" came to mind. That was 20 odd years ago, I think things have changed, at least somewhat.

                    There are some pros out there today but in the current climate, I would say not worth the risk, no matter the money. Hell, Hillary can't even get that CIA guy out of Pak!
                    Last edited by Blue; 02 Mar 11,, 15:24.

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                    • #11
                      tigger,

                      that guy seems big on brawn but short on brains. after all, he's just insulted pretty much every iraqi...and he's gotta sleep sometime in jail.
                      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                      • #12
                        I definitely agree that this guy has dug himself a hole in the Iraqi mindset. It will most likely lead to him dying much quicker then he would have before, especially since the guards will be more willing to turn their backs to a situation involving him.

                        A quick note on the original topic head. I would say that private security firms are simply today's mercenaries with a fancier name. many of the problems that arise from these firms are the same that have effected every military in history with a mercenary element.

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                        • #13
                          Machiavelli has proven to be right in a lot of regards and I think this is one of them. Mercernaries will often not be ideologically motivated (duh) meaning they don't have a personal connection to their job. Evolutionary psychology will tell you they will not perform with as much commitment or reliability. Of course there are exceptions.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by astralis View Post
                            tigger,

                            that guy seems big on brawn but short on brains. after all, he's just insulted pretty much every iraqi...and he's gotta sleep sometime in jail.
                            Yes pretty much hey, .....not in for a pleasant visit methinks.

                            Originally posted by Porsche917LH View Post
                            Machiavelli has proven to be right in a lot of regards and I think this is one of them. Mercernaries will often not be ideologically motivated (duh) meaning they don't have a personal connection to their job. Evolutionary psychology will tell you they will not perform with as much commitment or reliability. Of course there are exceptions.
                            Mercernaries will often not be ideologically motivated (duh)
                            What if there ideoligy is money?

                            Evolutionary psychology will tell you they will not perform with as much commitment or reliability
                            Trust me their very lifes depend on it, and they do not (in the case of mercs, which I think you are refering to) have a friendly government who will acknowledge them or bail them out should things go very badly "t*ts up".

                            Of course there are exceptions
                            nice out.
                            sigpicFEAR NAUGHT

                            Should raw analytical data ever be passed to policy makers?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Porsche917LH View Post
                              Machiavelli has proven to be right in a lot of regards and I think this is one of them. Mercernaries will often not be ideologically motivated (duh) meaning they don't have a personal connection to their job. Evolutionary psychology will tell you they will not perform with as much commitment or reliability. Of course there are exceptions.

                              Yet the mercenaries keep beating the pants off the bad guys, repeatedly and with great vigor. Does that mean the opposition wasn't "ideologically motivated" enough? Whatever reason they initially enlist not withstanding, soldiers tend to fight for their mates, not for some vague and distant ideology
                              Reddite igitur quae sunt Caesaris Caesari et quae sunt Dei Deo
                              (Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's)

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