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INSAS vs AK47 vs M16?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by hammer
    lemontree and Cottage cheese, whats your take on SA Vz.58 (czechoslovakian version of AK) ? I 've seen some Indian army units use those rifles.
    Hammer, we have both the Vz 58 and 58P - a few thousand or so in the late 80's. These are definitely better in quality than any run of the mill AK. BTW the 58s are not exactly AK versions - they are entirely different weapons- They only look similar. The only sheet metal parts are the receiver cover and the magazine. Rest is well milled steel. The mechanism is entirely different as well, using a Walther P38 type wedge lock and oddly a striker firing mechanism. never cared too much about the 58P's skinny folding stock. Otherwise the weapon seems to be another winner coming from the east. I've heard lots of positive comments on it and rightly so. All in all if it wasn't for the logistical nightmare of weapon types in service , its definitely a good buy. I don't know for sure which units are issued with 58s - perhaps Lemontree can dig this out? I do know my classmate who was a Captain in the Bihar(regiment?) used one in Drass.

    The earstwhile Czechoslovakian arms industry has a long and established history. You'd probably know of Brno.

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    • #32
      Thanks guys. :)

      The earstwhile Czechoslovakian arms industry has a long and established history. You'd probably know of Brno.
      Ah Yes, The British Bren was based on the Czech design(Brno), isnt it?.The Indian army still uses the latest version of Bren IIRC.
      Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie!'...till you can find a rock. ;)

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      • #33
        Originally posted by hammer
        Thanks guys. :)



        Ah Yes, The British Bren was based on the Czech design(Brno), isnt it?.The Indian army still uses the latest version of Bren IIRC.
        Yup- Bren , and also the Mod 2 .22Cal rifle, which in my opinion is one of the best 22cal bolt actions. I don't know about the Army but the police have many as a beginners training rifle. The workmanship is top class. I think though old the Mod 2 lives on, even in the US under the CZ USA tag.

        You'll probably know of the Czech Pistol fiasco in the 80's? That was the Brno Cz75 - another winner from the east. I'm not sure why the deal got scrapped since it is one helluva good piece. The CZ-75 now competes with the 1911 and the Beretta for the place as the most imfluential pistol design. Its amazing... you'll find CZ75 based designs being marketed in US, UK, Israel, Italy, Switzerland etc.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by lemontree
          I agree. The problem is lack of passion.

          The full black ones are Romanian and the went to the Parachute Regiment (non commando). The Bulgarian ones are different, they look the same as other AK-47s/AK-56s.
          Hope you're not referring to the Romanian copies of the MPiKM and MPiKMS72 - We did purchase about 180,000 @$68 each! - apparently for the RR- I see more of it in regular Army hands though - You'll know better.

          I don't seem to know of the full black Romaninan ones you're mentioning. Was it some time ago? 'coz the Full Black Bulgarian ones (basically a dressed up '56 clone) seems to have been procured only earlier this year. I've seen many in the hands of CRPF foot patrols and I know the Nagaland & Meghalaya police (I think Assam too) just got their consignments some months ago. I got to inspect a few.

          I recall there was some ruckus in the parliament about the shadiness of the deal (As usual) Seems the Russians threw up a big fuss over losing the bid. Throw any light on this?

          Its a good battle rifle and LMG, but requires more R&D. But the point is that it is our own product and can be sold in the open market without taking permission from any supplier country.
          Fully agree here. The Excalibur is a good step forward. Perhaps we should think in terms of modding kits like the new generation of M16A2s, M4s, and Minimis.

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          • #35
            As a former cop I had a lot of training and experience withthe M-16, and I had owned my own AK for several years (putting thousands of rounds through it).

            From my experiences the AK is infinately more reliable, but the M-16 is much more accurate as a result of its better sights and straighter shooting round. My AK I never cleaned and it always functed reliably. My M-16 wound jam repeatedly after a couple of hundred rounds if not borken down, cleaned, and thouroughly oiled.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by cottage cheese
              Hope you're not referring to the Romanian copies of the MPiKM and MPiKMS72 - We did purchase about 180,000 @$68 each! - apparently for the RR- I see more of it in regular Army hands though - You'll know better.

              I don't seem to know of the full black Romaninan ones you're mentioning. Was it some time ago? 'coz the Full Black Bulgarian ones (basically a dressed up '56 clone) seems to have been procured only earlier this year. I've seen many in the hands of CRPF foot patrols and I know the Nagaland & Meghalaya police (I think Assam too) just got their consignments some months ago. I got to inspect a few.
              Well then it seems I may be confused since the weapons issued in the J&K sector (or correctly the units in J&K) were East-European/Russian or Romanian apart from the refurbished captured AKs.
              If the Bulgarian ones are in the NE sector then I suppose you would know better since I was never posted there while in service.

              Cheers!...on the rocks!!

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              • #37
                Originally posted by JBodnar39
                As a former cop I had a lot of training and experience withthe M-16, and I had owned my own AK for several years (putting thousands of rounds through it).

                From my experiences the AK is infinately more reliable, but the M-16 is much more accurate as a result of its better sights and straighter shooting round. My AK I never cleaned and it always functed reliably. My M-16 wound jam repeatedly after a couple of hundred rounds if not borken down, cleaned, and thouroughly oiled.
                Hi Bodnar, welcome to the little circle. You're pretty right about the M-16/AK comparison. M-16s are somewhat 'rare' in this corner of the world. My entire acquaintance with the M16 is from seized specimens. All of them being A1 versions, pretty old and worn down. Nevertheless I find them to be very fine weapons and as you mentioned pretty accurate. I'm kind of wary of putting Indian issue 5.56 through them since I don't know if the Indian standard follows M193 or SS109 or some totally different one. Lemontree any info on this?

                You'll know better about improvements in the M16A2+ variants. Without doubt they are first class weapons.

                AK?... well its not goin to fade from the battlefield anytime soon. Dispite its deficiencies, what makes me laugh is how some people bad mouth it so much as to make it seem like if someone fired an AK at you nothing will happen to you and you probably walk away yawning and patting dust off yout shirt. :)

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by cottage cheese
                  I'm kind of wary of putting Indian issue 5.56 through them since I don't know if the Indian standard follows M193 or SS109 or some totally different one. Lemontree any info on this?
                  It is SS109 or M193 (as the US call it).

                  Cheers!...on the rocks!!

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by cottage cheese
                    Hi Bodnar, welcome to the little circle. You're pretty right about the M-16/AK comparison. M-16s are somewhat 'rare' in this corner of the world. My entire acquaintance with the M16 is from seized specimens. All of them being A1 versions, pretty old and worn down. Nevertheless I find them to be very fine weapons and as you mentioned pretty accurate. I'm kind of wary of putting Indian issue 5.56 through them since I don't know if the Indian standard follows M193 or SS109 or some totally different one. Lemontree any info on this?

                    You'll know better about improvements in the M16A2+ variants. Without doubt they are first class weapons.

                    AK?... well its not goin to fade from the battlefield anytime soon. Dispite its deficiencies, what makes me laugh is how some people bad mouth it so much as to make it seem like if someone fired an AK at you nothing will happen to you and you probably walk away yawning and patting dust off yout shirt. :)
                    Most people, especially us Americans, tend to underestimate the AK47.

                    As for the M193/SS109 comparison, the SS109 has a heavier bullet than the M193. I do believe that SS109 is for rifles with the 1:7 twist, whereas the M193 is optimized for 1:9 twist. However, my AR-15, which has a 1:9 twist, will shoot both M193 and SS109 ammo just fine.
                    "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by lemontree
                      Well then it seems I may be confused since the weapons issued in the J&K sector (or correctly the units in J&K) were East-European/Russian or Romanian apart from the refurbished captured AKs.
                      If the Bulgarian ones are in the NE sector then I suppose you would know better since I was never posted there while in service.
                      From my observation and at times, first hand fiddling, the distribution of AKs and variants in the country would roughly be like this:
                      (Correct me if there are errors)

                      AKM(Soviet) - Army, ParaMilitary* and Police (I see most now in Police, PM and Assam Rifles)
                      AKMS - Same as above but include Navy (MARCOS) as well as NSG
                      MPiKM (2nd Hand East German) - Army
                      MPiKMS-72 - Same as above
                      MPiKM - Romanian made(not sure of Romanian name for it) - Army & RR
                      MPiKMS-72- Same as above
                      Type 56-2(Chinese)- Mostly captured- I've see every one from army to local police requisitioning them into use. But I guess a majority of the AKs picked up in JK are locked up for propaganda value(is ths correct?)
                      M-22 Chinese clone of AK47v3-wood stock- Mostly in NE and I see cops using a lot of seized ones.
                      AK47S New Bulgarian Imports(dunno the exact Name) - As I know CRPF and State Police Forces - turning out to be substandard.

                      Possibly some Hungarian AKMS - If I remember- with NSG

                      I read somewhere we'd equipped our SFF with Bulgarian AKs and M16s(?), after '62.

                      Purulia Incident - Any idea what bacame of the 350 or so Bulgarian AKs? The last I heard, the CBI was offering the AKs to any state/military organization interested in them.

                      We seem to have a nasty tryst with bulgarian AKs eh?

                      Then of course, though not entirely AKs, there are the Cz 58 and 58Ps which is an exclusively Army affair.


                      * Paramilitary includes CRPF, BSF, ITBP, CISF, Assam Rifles, NSG...any others?
                      Last edited by cottage cheese; 10 Aug 05,, 06:47.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by lemontree
                        It is SS109 or M193 (as the US call it).
                        I thought the US nomenclature for SS109 was M885...855?

                        Anyway thanks for the confimarion on the standard.
                        Last edited by cottage cheese; 10 Aug 05,, 06:50.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by leibstandarte10
                          Most people, especially us Americans, tend to underestimate the AK47.

                          As for the M193/SS109 comparison, the SS109 has a heavier bullet than the M193. I do believe that SS109 is for rifles with the 1:7 twist, whereas the M193 is optimized for 1:9 twist. However, my AR-15, which has a 1:9 twist, will shoot both M193 and SS109 ammo just fine.
                          Hi leibstandarte, so its ok to chug 109's through older A1s? I assume accuracy will suffer though(?)

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                          • #43
                            Sounds okay, it's the same diameter and recoil, so it shouldn't not work in it.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by cottage cheese
                              I read somewhere we'd equipped our SFF with Bulgarian AKs and M16s(?), after '62.
                              Aks yes but the M-16s maybe for operational tests.
                              Purulia Incident - Any idea what bacame of the 350 or so Bulgarian AKs? The last I heard, the CBI was offering the AKs to any state/military organization interested in them.
                              A lot of the unaccounted ones are in the hands of the decoits in Bihar/UP and MP.
                              We seem to have a nasty tryst with bulgarian AKs eh?
                              * Paramilitary includes CRPF, BSF, ITBP, CISF, Assam Rifles, NSG...any others?
                              Practically NSG is more of an SOF anti-terrorist organisation.

                              Cheers!...on the rocks!!

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by cottage cheese
                                Hi leibstandarte, so its ok to chug 109's through older A1s? I assume accuracy will suffer though(?)
                                I never noticed a severe change in accuracy when switching rounds. However, it may not hold true for other weapons and loads.
                                "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

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