Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Do armies hold live fire(non-lethal) exercises pitting companies against each other?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Do armies hold live fire(non-lethal) exercises pitting companies against each other?

    I've always wondered this, if modern armies train their personnel with more than just learning how to shoot, the basic maneuvers, simulating a plan, shooting at wooden targets, etc.

    And instead, maybe utilize rubber bullets (with proper protection of course), and be sent off in a red/blue style engagement where both sides fire on each other with the full battle scenario, highly dynamic, allows extreme flexibility for decision making.

    Of course heavier equipment such as artillery and tanks would be far more difficult to emulate...

  • #2
    Originally posted by cr9527 View Post
    I've always wondered this, if modern armies train their personnel with more than just learning how to shoot, the basic maneuvers, simulating a plan, shooting at wooden targets, etc.

    And instead, maybe utilize rubber bullets (with proper protection of course), and be sent off in a red/blue style engagement where both sides fire on each other with the full battle scenario, highly dynamic, allows extreme flexibility for decision making.

    Of course heavier equipment such as artillery and tanks would be far more difficult to emulate...
    The army doesn't use rubber or even non-lethal ammo, but laser... Think the ultimate laser tag game.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

    Comment


    • #3
      In the mid 90s to early 02 we (USMC) used simunitions during small unit one on one training.

      They are paint/watercolor filled 9mm wax rounds that can be fired from modified M-16s and regular M-9s. Simunition rounds and adapter kits were pretty hard to come by. I think the unit of issue was 1 companys worth per regiment(?) and it was in heavy demand. We called it SESAMS.

      The one thing I remember most is that the round traveled at 650fps and stung like crazy.

      A 9mm round traveling a little over 2x the speed of a regular paintball round.

      Much better than lasers. There is no denying that you are hit. Or gaming the "Miles" by using concealment as cover. It dislodged a few bad habits that gets picked up during miles training, like hiding behind a bush vice using real cover. Or removing the receiver batteries in your gear.

      Many Battalions used unit funds and bought paintball guns for small level force on force without having to wait for the SESAMs to become available.

      I don't know if it is still used
      Last edited by Gun Grape; 02 Feb 11,, 01:44.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by cr9527 View Post
        Of course heavier equipment such as artillery and tanks would be far more difficult to emulate...
        I'm imagining a paint ball round for a tank or a howitzer---nahhh ;)
        sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
        If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

        Comment


        • #5
          "I'm imagining a paint ball round for a tank or a howitzer---nahhh;)"

          That's where MILES (Multiple Integrated Laser Engagement System) comes to the fore. Force on force mechanized engagements on a computer-controlled range of massive size at the National Training Center was intense. A dedicated home-team force which replicated Soviet tactics, regimental size, and type and equipped with MILES could create a very effective training vehicle.
          "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
          "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
            In the mid 90s to early 02 we (USMC) used simunitions during small unit one on one training.

            They are paint/watercolor filled 9mm wax rounds that can be fired from modified M-16s and regular M-9s. Simunition rounds and adapter kits were pretty hard to come by. I think the unit of issue was 1 companys worth per regiment(?) and it was in heavy demand. We called it SESAMS.

            The one thing I remember most is that the round traveled at 650fps and stung like crazy.

            A 9mm round traveling a little over 2x the speed of a regular paintball round.

            Much better than lasers. There is no denying that you are hit. Or gaming the "Miles" by using concealment as cover. It dislodged a few bad habits that gets picked up during miles training, like hiding behind a bush vice using real cover. Or removing the receiver batteries in your gear.

            Many Battalions used unit funds and bought paintball guns for small level force on force without having to wait for the SESAMs to become available.

            I don't know if it is still used
            GG,
            Still in use, although they are dang expensive. Too expensive to outfit multiple companies with the SESAM weapons and protective gear.
            S/Fi

            Comment


            • #7
              I see, thanks guys.

              Have any of these exercises proven to give the trainees an edge over those who never participated in them?

              Comment


              • #8
                OpFor trained forces are regularly kicked in during their first initiation to the scenario and battleground. After the first shock, they start learning. After this phase, they (usually) get better, and learn to think from the other side of the hill. Yes, OpFor training helps get better.

                Comment


                • #9
                  From what I read simunition and the new UTM(ultimate training munitions) are used mainly for CQB training.

                  At small unit level Airsoft is much cheaper.Not as painful but you get the idea what's wrong and what's not.
                  Those who know don't speak
                  He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    We did some paintball training but never got any real MILES practice in. What we would do is give each company an objective to either defend or attack and whenever we spotted an "enemy" tank we'd radio it into the judges who had a Gods-eye view and they would promptly declare the enemy tank "dead". The hardest one of those we had was when apparently the enemy company had been given something like 3-4 lives per tank so we'd kill them, they'd reverse behind cover and try and find a different way in. Definitely kept us hopping, but we finished the exercise with 9 out of 11 tanks still alive, including the XO and CO, and the objective still safely in our hands.

                    We felt good in the mess hall that night
                    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                    Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      At BATU Suffield (Canada) and on Salisbury Plain in the UK the British Army train now with TES (Tactical Engagement System)..... this incorperates the MILES system for personel and the DEFWES system for tanks and all other vehicles, AWES is the wrap around system that brings this all together and adds to it OS, (full capability including MLRS) minefields, rivers,obsticles etc, we also have IED's suicide vests, RPG's etc it is complete force on force training, we have permenant OPFOR actaually now called COEFOR and we train a complete BG at a time ...................
                      sigpicFEAR NAUGHT

                      Should raw analytical data ever be passed to policy makers?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        In Singapore, we use blanks along with the MILES system. These days we use the RFID tags to even simulate things like treating casualties with FAD, IV, Morphine etc. In fact the equipment we use even has a minute speaker attached to the harness. So arty bombardment, aerial bombardment, "near" miss sniper shots can be simulated. So when you hear any of this on your speaker, you are supposed to prone immediately or you are declared dead. In a dead casualty, the speaker will emit a high pitch sound which stops only if the casualty lies supine position on the ground. This is supposed to ensure that the casualty no longer takes part in the mission. Of course you can beat the system by simply taking off your harness and carrying on with the mission but then you can also get caught by the Opfor umpires.....
                        Seek Save Serve Medic

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Germany uses mostly the MILES equivalent AGDUS system (lasers + blanks). AGDUS doesn't support indirect fire (unlike the current MILES 2000). Also simulators for situational reaction training, placing the soldier or fireteam in standard missions portrayed on large video systems.

                          In a dead casualty, the speaker will emit a high pitch sound which stops only if the casualty lies supine position on the ground.
                          In AGDUS, you have to remove a digital key from the laser system on your weapon and plug it into your receiver to stop that sound, disabling your weapon as well. ;)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I know you asked about land forces, but air forces have systems as well. In the air to air mission, we had nothing comparable to MILES except for captive-carry missiles, the onboard computer system, and of course, professional judgement, to call someone "dead." The very best system (by far) was ACMI, Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation. This was a brilliant setup that allows all shoot data from large-scale exercises to be processed by a main-frame computer, and the result was a scalable view of a massive aerial battlefield, to include shots taken, missiles in-flight, etc.

                            ACMI pod - shaped (and cabled) like a sidewinder missile:


                            The problem, once you were "dead", you were still flying about and causing disruption to the natural flow of battle, so dead aircraft were to exit the airspace, doing aileron rolls to indicate "I am dead" to would-be pursuers.

                            Air to ground, mostly the BDU-33 practice bomb.

                            BDU-33

                            It carried a black-powder spotting charge, and they were a lot of fun. No doubt as to where it impacted. No practice bombing mission was done without some gambling going on, sometimes a nickel a foot, sometimes a dollar. The winner could rake in a tidy sum, and anyone who didn't pony up showed weakness, so the best bombers consistently made good $$.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Heck. Back in the "olden days" of the early to mid '80s, we'd just yell bang bang at each other. Now, if the guy on the other team refused to admit you got him, then the fun started. I saw more than one such exercise devolve into close combat over who shot who.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X