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  • #16
    these revolutions have a clear appreciation for democracy, whatever happens, this growing recognition is a positive development. Although I agree with the attitude in the thread regarding cynism towards what can be achieved, it really depends on what you hope to achieve, then one can measure if events are success or a failure

    originally posted by Mihais
    The desire to remove the governments can coexist with the antipathy towards Israel
    true, this could be positive or negative for Israel, but I dont think Israel's peace with Egypt will have any effect (or very little) on how they are viewed by the revolutionaries

    Originally posted by Castellano
    I never found a most racist people than the "Arabs", though I've never been in China
    .
    300 million arabs, 1.3 billion chinese, could be a record for the most people insulted (or implied) relative to words used, and not especially nice either

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    • #17
      I come from a rather mixed background with some family in Israel, others from Iraq. In a sense I do tend to receive a lot of feelings from both end of the stick.

      Now at this moment Israel has a win/win scenario, the new government may pursue status quo, but perhaps they will not. Should anything cause a full cease on trade in the Suez Canal, Israeli forces will be most likely maneuvered to the area.

      Israel wants peace, recognition and allies. This is generally true for most nations, however when one man on the Arab side of the fence yells hatred to the other, the Israeli side will return those sentiments in full.

      I know enough Israelis and jewish friends that would rather see the Arab world wiped from this world. As such, their government may represent that at times.
      As for the Israeli-Egyptian 'friendship', it will only exist as long as it's valuable and they will not hold out a helping hand.

      Perhaps Egypt will have a democratic nation, but democratic nations can go to war none the less. To be a democracy simply refers to a government where the people have the say, if the people want war, they will have war.

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      • #18
        So I've been following the Egyptian riots, but not too much over the weekend. Here's my thoughts on the subject;

        1: It seems that Mubarak might not be on his way out, but is definitely going to leave with his power lessened. Mubarak has been overall friendly to Israel, so that might not sit right with the protesters after the riots are over, or they may not care. It's extremely naive to assume that if Egypt is a democracy, they will automatically love Israel as another democracy. Matter of fact, I will not be surprised if when this is all over there is more security on the border than before. In 1973 we had the entire Sinai as a buffer zone, now we have much less.

        2: With any luck, this revolution will spread to Lebanon and Syria as well. Once again, to hope that just because dictators are overthrown there will be peace is a childish hope. However, specifically in the case of Lebanon/Syria, anything is better than Hezbollah/Assad.

        3: While I understand the position of this board, titled the World Affairs Board, I honestly don't think that there's much that we can do, especially in places like Egypt where the internet has been shut down. I support the revolutions, but I was quite shocked when I logged in and noticed that we had overnight changed to a revolutionary newsletter. I personally like the way it was before, with anyone feeling free to say what they like and not being channeled towards specific areas of discussion. We have enough people here from enough places in the world that even without the new banners, forum, threads, etc... the riots would have gotten plenty attention, and there already were a couple threads on the subject when I checked yesterday.

        In summary: The only real option we have available to us as members of WAB is to discuss this, since I think we are actually fairly limited when it comes to influencing governments and foreign policy. As human beings we should be as supportive of those seeking democracy, freedom and equal rights, but not be so naive as to believe that even if the revolutions are successful that there will be peace or that this will be a Cinderella story where everyone's living conditions will better overnight. Most chances are that the situation will stay exactly the same.

        As for myself, and I said this 2 weeks ago when Lebanon went up in flames: I sure as hell hope things stay relatively quiet, because if they don't, I will probably be very absent around here for a while. One of the beautiful things about tanks is that we're usually at the forefront of these kinds of things, and if the shit hits the fan, you can be damned sure I'll be called up to the reserves
        Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

        Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
          I'd love to see these corrupt tyrants get the same treatment they have inflicted on millions of their own people.

          I'm rubbing my hands in glee. :) I wanna see some necks break.
          The Shah may get deposed. Doesn't make the Ayatollah that follows any better.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Mihais View Post
            Skywatcher,only for public consumption.Of course they don't really care about the Israeli or,for that matter,the Palestinians.But here's some food for thought.All of them worked with the Israelis to suppress the ''freedom fighters''.We call those fundamentalists.Of course such things are not solved in the bazaar for everyone to see.
            I strongly concur.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Castellano View Post
              Yeah, I never found a most racist people than the "Arabs", though I've never been in China.
              What's that supposed to mean?

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              • #22
                this thread demonstrates some -very- american idealistic thinking-- the idea that revolutions against a dictatorship is always a good thing, soon democracy and human rights will come, let freedom ring!

                there is nothing further from the truth. revolutions have a -very- big tendency to be seized by the most extreme, by the most organized, and by the most ruthless. this is not an "arab" thing, see what happened during the french revolution. see what happened to the parliamentarians during the chinese revolution. here, the most extremist will be the religious organizations. if mubarak goes i am very nervous as to what the new egypt will look like. even if it -does- become a democracy, this will be a place where anti-israeli feeling will run wild, and where the muslim brotherhood will have a significant voice.
                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by astralis
                  this thread demonstrates some -very- american idealistic thinking-- the idea that revolutions against a dictatorship is always a good thing, soon democracy and human rights will come, let freedom ring!

                  there is nothing further from the truth. revolutions have a -very- big tendency to be seized by the most extreme, by the most organized, and by the most ruthless. this is not an "arab" thing, see what happened during the french revolution. see what happened to the parliamentarians during the chinese revolution. here, the most extremist will be the religious organizations. if mubarak goes i am very nervous as to what the new egypt will look like. even if it -does- become a democracy, this will be a place where anti-israeli feeling will run wild, and where the muslim brotherhood will have a significant voice.
                  the outcome is not alwalys good, but democracy should alwlays be favoured over dictatorship, this is not just about the geopolitical issue with Israel, but about the right of the egyptian people to determine their life and to have their rights, there are risks, but they must be accepted
                  You say you are nervous, there are good reasons to be, but we must accept these risks and support it, there are risks to not supporting it and that is to deny the rights of millions of egyptians, if their democratic governments in the future do not follow international law, then they can be held accountable, they should have the choice to determine their future

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by tantalus View Post
                    the outcome is not alwalys good, but democracy should alwlays be favoured over dictatorship, this is not just about the geopolitical issue with Israel, but about the right of the egyptian people to determine their life and to have their rights, there are risks, but they must be accepted
                    You say you are nervous, there are good reasons to be, but we must accept these risks and support it, there are risks to not supporting it and that is to deny the rights of millions of egyptians, if their democratic governments in the future do not follow international law, then they can be held accountable, they should have the choice to determine their future
                    Fascinating piece of the idealism Astralis talked about earlier.I agree about the ''rights'' part.Not because I believe in some hoo-hah ''people have rights'' speech.But simply because the Egyptian people seems willing to take those rights by force,from those that held them at bay by force.Might is right.

                    Support democracy.Fine in principle.But what about interests.For example,do you think you benefited personally from the Western control over the Arab regimes in the last 50 or so years?Hint,there is something about fuel price,the lil' thing that determines a good chunk of all prices,since all goods and services need a ride.

                    International law,accountability.Fine speech again.But how do you manage that?Strictly talking about Egypt,Suez is still the choke point it was for the 100+years.What are you going to do?Establish an embargo if they do something nasty?Fight them?Or just issue a piece of paper?
                    Those who know don't speak
                    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                    • #25
                      Not because I believe in some hoo-hah ''people have rights'' speech
                      do you think you benefited personally from the Western control over the Arab regimes in the last 50 or so years
                      complicated question but yes I have benefited immensly by western control of Arab regimes, I benefit immenesly, due to being born in a western country, from the staus quo, that does not make it right

                      Fascinating piece of the idealism
                      International law,accountability.Fine speech again.But how do you manage that?Strictly talking about Egypt,Suez is still the choke point it was for the 100+years.What are you going to do?Establish an embargo if they do something nasty?Fight them?Or just issue a piece of paper?
                      if they have the right and do determine the creation of a democratic system, then everything else will come as a secondry consequence which will have to be dealt with, solutions to potential future scenarios and outcomes have no say in the right of the egyptian people to self-determination.

                      Some broad dismissal of me being wrong because it is idealistic offers little substance, what you are referring to is an underlying philosophy that governs how I rationalise the situation, you have your own. I assume you refer to idealism inferring that I thought that democracy will paint a rosey picture and everything will work out in some ideal form, I never said such, infact I acknowledged the opposite can happen, it is not idealistic, just a point of view, such as yours, calling me idealistic is misguided.
                      Last edited by tantalus; 29 Jan 11,, 23:06.

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                      • #26
                        WOW, 32 threads opened, a front page situational report.......a little OTT dont you think............... Not really likeing the way the site is leveling out on this one........ oh well lets wait and see what develops.............. anyone want to open a book on how many get banned before this is done?......
                        sigpicFEAR NAUGHT

                        Should raw analytical data ever be passed to policy makers?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by tantalus View Post
                          300 million arabs, 1.3 billion chinese, could be a record for the most people insulted (or implied) relative to words used, and not especially nice either
                          Insulted, only if the 1.6 billion people you are talking about are racists.


                          I actually followed the framing of the thread, which, if you noticed, basically stated "Arab" Unity = Israel is F_cked; which is codeword for Genocide; which in turn reminded me of the Arab League with the help of the Chinese government enabling a racial Genocide in Darfur.

                          If we are gonna go for the Genghis Khan school of thought, and I disagree with the whole premise, at least let's call this stuff for what it is.
                          L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Skywatcher View Post
                            What's that supposed to mean?
                            It means exactly what I stated. But maybe you want to challenge my observation.
                            L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux

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                            • #29
                              Tantalus,we are of course all about sharing views.By calling you an idealist I did not mean to insult you.This stuff about what's right and what's not is a long talk that has little place here.Suffice to say that while many people may think like you now,they might not like so much to live with the consequences.Noble ideas are fine,but wealth and standard of living tend to mold peoples in different shapes.It's not that I'm all about cynicism and I see conflicts everywhere. But I've seen ideas come and fade ,however basic needs of a human being remain the same.

                              We'll live and we'll see.Right now we're just placing bets.


                              p.s Btw,I did not called you wrong.
                              Last edited by Mihais; 29 Jan 11,, 23:46.
                              Those who know don't speak
                              He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                              • #30
                                Mihais, :)
                                I am ofcourse something when a classification has to be applied, I just dont think an idealist is an appropriate term, I have outlined why I feel so

                                right and wrong?
                                your correct, its not the right place and it would be a long talk, too long

                                Suffice to say that while many people may think like you now,they might not like so much to live with the consequences.Noble ideas are fine,but wealth and standard of living tend to mold peoples in different shapes
                                very very true, I speak only for myself

                                We'll live and we'll see.Right now we're just placing bets
                                .
                                we are placing bets regarding the outcome, but irrevelent of the outcome, I still think the best course of action at this time is to support democracy, for the reasons I outlined, - you see, we cant know the outcomes, and even if we could, and they were negative ones in the outcome, I still maintain that democracy should be supported, now I understand where we disagree, you are wondering what the outcome will be, so as to decide the best course of action, I am technically not, I would support democracy and deal with the consequences as appropiate, I just wanted to be clear, I hope I am, that the betting aspect is only secondary to my standpoint on the issue, so even if the outcomes prove negative in the end (although in the long run I feel democracy is the best option no matter what), I would still say that the correct decision at the time was to support democracy, my position is a stubborn one as I dont see it open to correction when we see the outcome, because simply I view it as the appropiate decision independent of the outcome in this type of scenario where the people by popular demand desire it so.

                                Iam not trying to further the arguement with you on the issue Mihais, I just wanted to be clear regarding my own reasoning

                                edit -
                                p.s Btw,I did not called you wrong
                                true, my bad, you raised specific questions, I did address them, but you didnt imply that, my bad
                                Last edited by tantalus; 30 Jan 11,, 00:04.

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