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$220,000 uparmored Humvee "inadequate" - solutions, workarounds?

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  • $220,000 uparmored Humvee "inadequate" - solutions, workarounds?

    Objective: Discussion about what's the most pragmatic, practical solution to the transport needs of US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan

    Questions:
    • is the Humvee a relic of the past? Is it time to move onto a new form of transport?
    • can the "wheel" be reinvented to meet the current needs of US troops overseas?
    • what alternative armored/land vehicles may be more suitable to replace the Humvee, if as a platform it proves to be inadequate?
    • is it just better to start from scratch with regards to infantry transport?

    Washington (CNN) -- The dangerous roads of Iraq and Afghanistan have forced changes in what soldiers drive, and forced costs up as well, according to a just-released report on Army vehicles.

    The former military workhorse, the Humvee, carried a $70,000 price tag. As that was modified, or "up-armored," the cost rose to from $160,000 to $220,000.

    "This modern Up-Armored HMMWV (UAH), however, still does not fully meet the evolving mobility or protection requirements of our soldiers," according to the report, released by the Army Thursday. It looks ahead to future needs for tactical wheeled vehicles.

    The next generation, JLTV, the Joint Light Tactical Vehicle, has new capabilities and a higher price but is still far cheaper than, MRAPs, Mine Resistant Ambush Protected Vehicles, developed to counter hidden explosive devices, the report notes.

    "The cost to provide this capability is high -- it is estimated that each JLTV will cost in excess of $300,000 before equipping with essential combat systems -- but not as high as the cost of the MRAP family of vehicles, which cost $430,000 - $900,000 apiece to procure," the report says.

    The Army estimates that its wheeled vehicles right now cost $70 billion.

    "To meet the threat on today's battlefields, trucks must now be armored, have the additional capacity and power to carry that armor, and be outfitted with a wide variety of command, control, communications and computers, and intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance equipment," the report says.

    But the report also recognizes that budgets may be contracting.

    "The Army is also on the downward side of a phase of increased funding to support fleet growth and modernization," the report says. "As a result, the Army of the next 15 years must adapt its TWV fleet to meet the threats of today and tomorrow, with reduced funding as compared to the past seven years."
    Source: CNN News Online, US Section
    Steep cost of military vehicles outlined in Army report - CNN.com
    "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

  • #2
    This is what happens when you try to turn a jeep into an APC.

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    • #3
      I agree with Cowman; there is a time and a place for a vanilla Humvee, but Iraq & Afghanistan isn't it. If they are used out in the sticks, they should be fine, not too many IED's out there. But once you start talking about built-up, urban areas, it's time to start using the MRAP's. Up-armoring a Humvee isn't the answer, it's a band-aid; I'm sure the M1151 is much more survivable than an M998, but it is still vulnerable to IED's & EFP's. In short, the Humvee is still the answer in a low-threat environment; but past that, an MRAP, or even a Stryker, would be a better answer.
      Last edited by Stitch; 11 Feb 11,, 06:33.
      "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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      • #4
        Need to know more about uses and requirements. Outfitting a humvee with C3I is expensive if fully-linked to all assets as a command vehicle. Does every humvee need that? Does every humvee need mine-resistant, uparmored protection? Dunno. Weapons? Humvee was once a pretty versatile vehicle when I served but that was before guys started getting whacked on patrol convoys. Then again, we never imagined humvees being called-upon for the myriad uses now faced. Nor the threats.
        "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
        "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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        • #5
          It boggles the mind the prices that the US Military pays to up armor Humvees when it has had thousands upon thousands of M113s in inventory the whole time.

          Honestly, even forgetting the M113, just the prices the US military pays are utterly obscene.

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          • #6
            The other thing is those 1151's ad 1114's are road only vehicles like the MRAP's and Caymens with less seating and armor. the only thing is the dead space behind the MRAP's other than that there is no reason to use a humvee for convoy escort

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bill View Post
              It boggles the mind the prices that the US Military pays to up armor Humvees when it has had thousands upon thousands of M113s in inventory the whole time.

              Honestly, even forgetting the M113, just the prices the US military pays are utterly obscene.


              But the thing is you can't use the 113's for a lot of what the humvees are being used for remember we are rebuilding their infrastructure we do not want to then destroy it by driving a bunch of tracked vehicles on the roads. the other thin is they would be impractical for most convoys. In 2009 when I was in Iraq we escorted convoys covering half the country

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              • #8
                HMMWV was never meant as an armored vehicle. Retrofitting one to be an APC is not cost effective. It's a half-assed job for a lot of money. It would be more cost effective if the army just buys some off-the-shelf wheeled APC from the international market.
                "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                • #9
                  We could have taken something like a VAB/BMR-600 and issued them to infantry units. Box on wheels.
                  To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                    HMMWV was never meant as an armored vehicle. Retrofitting one to be an APC is not cost effective. It's a half-assed job for a lot of money. It would be more cost effective if the army just buys some off-the-shelf wheeled APC from the international market.
                    Agreed.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                      HMMWV was never meant as an armored vehicle. Retrofitting one to be an APC is not cost effective. It's a half-assed job for a lot of money. It would be more cost effective if the army just buys some off-the-shelf wheeled APC from the international market.
                      On a side note, when they were available (I heard now hard to get) the add on uparmor packages were a cost effective option for civilian use. Although the package didn't have some items, the good point was that when vehicle wore out you bought a new one and transferred the package.
                      Reddite igitur quae sunt Caesaris Caesari et quae sunt Dei Deo
                      (Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's)

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                      • #12
                        You could "bulletproof" a humvee (or any vehicle) for civilian "needs" to Level IV (will stop .30 ap rounds) much, much cheaper than that if you were doing it yourself.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                          HMMWV was never meant as an armored vehicle. Retrofitting one to be an APC is not cost effective. It's a half-assed job for a lot of money. It would be more cost effective if the army just buys some off-the-shelf wheeled APC from the international market.
                          I'm still waiting for some informed comment on this: re -S2 maybe astralis on the mentality behind the amount of upgrading that has happened... Procurement in the U.S appears to be more of a 'how much money do you need', when someone moots upgrading something. With other nations it's more limiting those lighter assets and using more appropriate assets already within the fleet or change of plan.

                          OoE made a post a few months ago now, re a former soldier in Iraq now standing on a political platform (or was at the time of posting) regarding a particular incident the fella was involved in.

                          So maybe the big budgets the Pentagon gets share the burden of blame & trickle down to complacency in operational deployment when it comes to assigning equipment for tasks. I.E you spend that much on a HMMWV it better be able to stop a bullet hence gets tasked more & more hence a requirement or case is made for further procurement?
                          Ego Numquam

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                          • #14
                            We have already announced our plans to get out of A-Stan. We probably won't need these special MRAP's or heavily modified Hummvees again during their useful lives. I would think the idea of buying a some wheeled APC's and avoiding the development costs for this limited time need or using something we have like the M1117 would make more sense. It seems like trying to make a Hummvee into an armored car is doomed to fail.
                            Last edited by USSWisconsin; 14 Feb 11,, 16:47.
                            sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
                            If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

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                            • #15
                              The Hummer has a valid military role. Staff car, light escort, light transport, ambulance etc. The problem the humvee faces are do to misuse- as a heavy escort or primary transport in an area where there are no "safe" lanes of travel. The appalling losses the hummer has suffered and the gobs of money spent on it reflect a failure on a different level. Simply buying bigger more armored transports ignores the foundation failure that our troops are operating in areas where they only control fire bases and the ground they are physically on. In A-stan we have failed to isolate the Taliban and keep it from the civilian population. It took us years to achieve it in Iraq and even then it was the Sunni's not us who provided the way forward.

                              So long as we are perceived as the aggressor, then the population remains an enemy not friendly asset.

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