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  • "The Robust Man of Europe" Article by His Excellency Mr. Recep Tayyip Erdogan

    The Robust Man of Europe
    The Robust Man of Europe - Print - Newsweek

    "Turkey has the vigor that the EU badly needs".

    by His Excellency Mr. Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Prime Minister of the Republic of Turkey
    January 17, 2011

    At the end of this century’s first decade, we can observe how the locus of power has shifted in world politics. The G20 is replacing the G7 as the overseer of the global economy. The need to restructure the U.N. Security Council to be more representative of the international order is profoundly pressing. And emerging powers such as Brazil, India, Turkey, and others are playing very assertive roles in global economic affairs.

    The European Union cannot be the one sphere that is immune to these changes in the balance of power. The financial crisis has laid bare Europe’s need for greater dynamism and change: European labor markets and social-security systems are comatose. European economies are stagnant. European societies are near geriatric. Can Europe retain power and credibility in the new world order without addressing these issues?

    Meanwhile, as a candidate for EU membership, Turkey has been putting its imprint on the global stage with its impressive economic development and political stability. The Turkish economy is Europe’s fastest-growing sizable economy and will continue to be so in 2011. According to Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development forecasts, Turkey will be the second-largest economy in Europe by 2050. Turkey is a market where foreign direct investment can get emerging-market returns at a developed-market risk. Turkey is bursting with the vigor that the EU so badly needs.

    And it’s not only economics. Turkey is becoming a global and regional player with its soft power. Turkey is rediscovering its neighborhood, one that had been overlooked for decades. It is following a proactive foreign policy stretching from the Balkans to the Middle East and the Caucasus. Turkey’s “zero-problem, limitless trade” policy with the countries of the wider region aims to create a haven of nondogmatic stability for all of us. We have visa-free travel with 61 countries. This is not a romantic neo-Ottomanism: It is realpolitik based on a new vision of the global order. And I believe that this vision will help the EU, too, in the next decade.

    Our intense diplomatic efforts have yielded fruit in Iraq and Afghanistan, in the Balkans, and also in regard to the Iranian nuclear program. Turkey has been an active player in all the major areas of global politics and we do not intend to surrender this momentum. Once it becomes a member of the EU, Turkey will contribute to European interests in a wide range of issues, from foreign and economic policy to regional security and social harmony.

    Even though the case for Turkey’s membership of the EU is self-evident and requires little explanation, the accession process has been facing resistance orchestrated by certain member states. Unfortunately, the negotiation process is not currently proceeding as it ought to. Eighteen out of 22 negotiation chapters pending for discussion are blocked on political grounds. This is turning into the sort of byzantine political intrigue that no candidate country has experienced previously. In this treatment, Turkey is unique.

    Our European friends should realize that Turkey-EU relations are fast approaching a turning point. In the recent waves of enlargement, the EU smoothly welcomed relatively small countries and weak economies in order to boost their economic growth, consolidate their democracies, and provide them with shelter. Not letting them in would have meant leaving those countries at the mercy of political turmoil that might emerge in the region. No such consideration has ever been extended to Turkey. Unlike those states, Turkey is a regional player, an international actor with an expanding range of soft power and a resilient, sizable economy. And yet, the fact that it can withstand being rebuffed should not become reason for Turkey’s exclusion. Sometimes I wonder if Turkey’s power is an impediment to its accession to the Union. If so, one has to question Europe’s strategic calculations.

    It’s been more than half a century since Turkey first knocked at Europe’s door. In the past, Turkey’s EU vocation was purely economic. The Turkey of today is different. We are no more a country that would wait at the EU’s door like a docile supplicant.

    Some claim that Turkey has no real alternative to Europe. This argument might be fair enough when taking into account the level of economic integration between Turkey and the EU—and, in particular, the fact that a liberal and democratic Europe has always been an anchor for reform in Turkey. However, the opposite is just as valid. Europe has no real alternative to Turkey. Especially in a global order where the balance of power is shifting, the EU needs Turkey to become an ever stronger, richer, more inclusive, and more secure Union. I hope it will not be too late before our European friends discover this fact.

    Erdogan is prime minister of Turkey.

  • #2
    Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
    The Robust Man of Europe
    The Robust Man of Europe - Print - Newsweek

    "Turkey has the vigor that the EU badly needs".

    by His Excellency Mr. Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Prime Minister of the Republic of Turkey
    January 17, 2011

    I have to admit, I find extremely refreshing your addition of "His Excellency" as an extra title that doesn't exist in the original article.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Rastagir View Post
      I have to admit, I find extremely refreshing your addition of "His Excellency" as an extra title that doesn't exist in the original article.
      There are laws which I have to abide by too.

      Any Head of Government or Head of State is addressed by their honorifics. The article may have omited such but it does not mean I will do an injustice to International and State protocol.

      I would be happy if we could discuss the article rather than de minimis things such as this.

      Comment


      • #4
        Well, if I remember correctly, you were the one who posted this

        http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/int...me-member.html

        and if I understand correctly, Bagis says that the whole point of turkish bid for membership isn't the membership per se, but an excuse to curb the power of the Army ("economic and democratic reforms" I think he calls them). And you yourseflf, time and again, have pointed out that the Turkish people don't want to be members of EU.

        So, I don't really see the point of such an article. After all, you have what you want: waiting outside EU. Why Erdogan is whining about it?

        Comment


        • #5
          me thinks that this is one of worlds best anonymous performances..

          i, personally, dont support EU membership for geopolitical reasons,

          EU can not (even if they want it) accept Turkey as a member due to many economical, political, structural and cultural reasons,

          Turkish citizens & EU citizens dont want each other,

          IMO, current Turkish govt. want to use the candidateship for internal combustion again.

          IMO, the Turkish membership concept came to an end when EU accepted Southern-Cyprus as a full member . so todays government will use it.

          they will say "we ended the double standards applied by EU to us, how good we are, how proud we are" and more chest thumping...

          also the current geopolitics provide Turkey a strong position also, and they are using it too...one thing is for sure that they are lucky at this point.

          as for "His Excellency"... Mr. Erdogan does not excel in ANY ground to me...
          Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Big K View Post
            me thinks that this is one of worlds best anonymous performances..

            i, personally, dont support EU membership for geopolitical reasons,

            EU can not (even if they want it) accept Turkey as a member due to many economical, political, structural and cultural reasons,

            Turkish citizens & EU citizens dont want each other,

            IMO, current Turkish govt. want to use the candidateship for internal combustion again.

            IMO, the Turkish membership concept came to an end when EU accepted Southern-Cyprus as a full member . so todays government will use it.

            they will say "we ended the double standards applied by EU to us, how good we are, how proud we are" and more chest thumping...

            also the current geopolitics provide Turkey a strong position also, and they are using it too...one thing is for sure that they are lucky at this point.

            as for "His Excellency"... Mr. Erdogan does not excel in ANY ground to me...

            We, my friend, totally agree.

            The way I see it, Erdogan is just counting down to the moment he will say "We are not interested in EU membership anymore, we withdraw our bid" in order not to lose face.

            I do not want Turkey in EU either, not because I don't like Turks or out of spite but for one very simple reason: Us, Cypriots, will simply seize to exist. We number under 1.000.000 people and if the borders open, with our strong economy and Turkey already having a firm foothold in the north, Turks will come in waves. We will become a minority in our own country. I don't think anyone wants that for his country, and no, to me it would make no difference if it were Turks, Germans or English.

            I certainly do not write out a peaceful co-existence but I do not think that this will be achieved just from an EU membership. We have a long way to go, but talking with people like Big K makes me hopeful.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Big K View Post
              me thinks that this is one of worlds best anonymous performances..

              i, personally, dont support EU membership for geopolitical reasons,

              EU can not (even if they want it) accept Turkey as a member due to many economical, political, structural and cultural reasons,

              Turkish citizens & EU citizens dont want each other,
              The only alternative to Turkey's EU membership would be a diluted Secular State structure.


              IMO, current Turkish govt. want to use the candidateship for internal combustion again. The AKP is using the EU candidacy for only one thing and one thing only. It wants to show the Islamic world that no matter what it does it will never be accepted as an equal amongst Western Nations. As such, they will use all this to gather momentum around an Islamic Union of Countries the AKP is concurrently creating through FTA zones and VISA free zones. The Turkish Armed Forces would also eventually cave in to changed Turkish public opinion as they too would have no other Western option left to pursue. This would mean all of the AKP's goals are met. Erdogan is weaving everyone into his trap he is playing a much bigger game

              IMO, the Turkish membership concept came to an end when EU accepted Southern-Cyprus as a full member . so todays government will use it.

              they will say "we ended the double standards applied by EU to us, how good we are, how proud we are" and more chest thumping...
              If you read the article carefully you will get the ultimate picture the PM is painting. "We are no more a country that would wait at the EU’s door like a docile supplicant".


              also the current geopolitics provide Turkey a strong position also, and they are using it too...one thing is for sure that they are lucky at this point.
              If they were not using this window of opportunity then they would be dumb and not doing there job right (from the perspective of it's voters)


              as for "His Excellency"... Mr. Erdogan does not excel in ANY ground to me...50% of your fellow countrymen have voted for him. He does not have to excel in anything. He is protected by the Constitution and Turkish legislation as PM of Turkey. He is afforded all the rights of such office whether we like it or not. It's useless even arguing over this.
              ...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                ...
                The only alternative to Turkey's EU membership would be a diluted Secular State structure.
                ONLY?...a diluted secular state???...would you be kind to explain how we must/should give away one of Ataturks most important addings like "Secularism" ?


                Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                ...The AKP is using the EU candidacy for only one thing and one thing only. It wants to show the Islamic world that no matter what it does it will never be accepted as an equal amongst Western Nations.
                this is international politics! sentimentality does not have a place here!

                be strong in every aspect and they will treat you as you deserve...


                Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                As such, they will use all this to gather momentum around an Islamic Union of Countries the AKP is concurrently creating through FTA zones and VISA free zones.
                yeah the same wahabbi Arabs who backstabbed us during ww1(never forget the defence of Mekke especially) and who are currently living their dark ages...

                Arab huggers...

                very smart move...


                Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                The Turkish Armed Forces would also eventually cave in to changed Turkish public opinion as they too would have no other Western option left to pursue. This would mean all of the AKP's goals are met. Erdogan is weaving everyone into his trap he is playing a much bigger game...
                once again akp is/will playing "victims"(for internal voters) but this time as you underlined they will use it to hug the Arabic world.

                he sure is weaving everyone in to his trap but this trap is one of worlds oldest biggest and most anonymous ones(from 1950).

                we somehow should turn the tide...


                return to the thread...Turkey is not the "Robust Man" of Europe".

                1- who dont produce its indigenous products,
                2- who's financial system belonging to foreigners 70%
                3- who is dependent the "hot money" that much
                4- who is dependent 100% to outsiders energywise

                can not be called "Robust".

                this is nothing but masturbating as a whole nation...
                Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Big K View Post
                  ONLY?...a diluted secular state???...would you be kind to explain how we must/should give away one of Ataturks most important addings like "Secularism" ?
                  Do you know how many different philosophical schools of secularism there is? Lacite is at the extreme end of the spectrum. There are less restrictive forms of secularism. Secularism draws its intellectual roots from Greek and Roman philosophers such as Marcus Aurelius and Epicurus, medieval Muslim polymaths such as Ibn Rushd, Enlightenment thinkers like Denis Diderot, Voltaire, John Locke, James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine, and modern freethinkers, agnostics and atheists such as Bertrand Russell and Robert Ingersoll. Which school did Ataturk choose? Or which school was Ataturk close to? E.g. He obviously did not ban the headscarf in the Presidential palace as evidenced by his turbaned wife (Zubeyda hanim) living there. Yet today's secular elite in Turkey was against Madame Gul's presence in the Cankaya Compound.





                  this is international politics! sentimentality does not have a place here!

                  It's called Real politik. No one can deny the fact that the PM is a devout muslims and his policies are influenced by his religion. No one can deny the fact that all devout muslims want unity within the muslim world.

                  be strong in every aspect and they will treat you as you deserve...

                  yeah the same wahabbi Arabs who backstabbed us during ww1(never forget the defence of Mekke especially) and who are currently living their dark ages...

                  Arab huggers...

                  very smart move...

                  I thought there was no sentimentality in the international political arena??

                  By the way the US and other western countries are also hugging the Wahabbi regime and reaping the benifits. Why shouldn't Turkey. Why can Turkey have relations with the Western world but not with it's backyard? You are letting emotions interfere with your views. You are pre-judicial and racially discriminating.



                  once again akp is/will playing "victims"(for internal voters) but this time as you underlined they will use it to hug the Arabic world.

                  he sure is weaving everyone in to his trap but this trap is one of worlds oldest biggest and most anonymous ones(from 1950).

                  we somehow should turn the tide...

                  With Europe and the west turning you away your only alternative is reassuming the role of leader of the Islamic world.


                  return to the thread...Turkey is not the "Robust Man" of Europe".

                  This is your personal opinion it is also ironic that it is on the same line as the populist guided CHP funded propaganda. The whole world can see the change in Turkey but some circles still deny this fact. What was the Turkish GDP prior to the AKP? What was the state of the Turkish Navy prior to the AKP? How long did it take to complete the Bolu tunnel? Who completed this tunnel?

                  1- who dont produce its indigenous products,
                  2- who's financial system belonging to foreigners 70%
                  3- who is dependent the "hot money" that much
                  4- who is dependent 100% to outsiders energywise

                  Please cite some sources for your assertions

                  can not be called "Robust".

                  this is nothing but masturbating as a whole nation... Again your personal opinion.
                  ...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                    .
                    Do you know how many different philosophical schools of secularism there is? Lacite is at the extreme end of the spectrum. There are less restrictive forms of secularism. Secularism draws its intellectual roots from Greek and Roman philosophers such as Marcus Aurelius and Epicurus, medieval Muslim polymaths such as Ibn Rushd, Enlightenment thinkers like Denis Diderot, Voltaire, John Locke, James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine, and modern freethinkers, agnostics and atheists such as Bertrand Russell and Robert Ingersoll. .
                    since you quoted from Wikipedia it would be nice to add a link,

                    heres its link Secularism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia,

                    Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                    .Which school did Ataturk choose? Or which school was Ataturk close to?
                    he formed a new one...here is ours as a separate link in your beloved wiki:
                    Secularism in Turkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                    Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                    . E.g. He obviously did not ban the headscarf in the Presidential palace as evidenced by his turbaned wife (Zubeyda hanim) living there. Yet today's secular elite in Turkey was against Madame Gul's presence in the Cankaya Compound. ..
                    Zubeyde Hanim his wife?...well well...wasnt she his mother and i think you mistyped here!?!

                    and yes i am also against Mme. Gül but not her presence, her "style" which refers/favors a fraction. also i dont think she reflects todays modern Turkish women at all.

                    but people like you dont understand that being against dont always means taking action...i am against her and this is a whole new thread about Islam and headscarfs and etc...


                    Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                    ...It's called Real politik. No one can deny the fact that the PM is a devout muslims and his policies are influenced by his religion. No one can deny the fact that all devout muslims want unity within the muslim world...
                    so you admit that Mr. Erdogan IS using democracy as a trojan horse for his secret agenda.

                    since you like wiki style heres some Real politik and its users...

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik

                    Real politik...refers to politics or diplomacy based primarily on power and on practical and material factors and considerations, rather than ideological notions or moralistic or ethical premises. In this respect, it shares aspects of its philosophical approach with those of realism and pragmatism.

                    The most famous German advocate of “Realpolitik” was Otto von Bismarck, the First Chancellor (1862–1890) to Wilhelm I of the Kingdom of Prussia. Bismarck used Realpolitik to achieve Prussian dominance in Germany, as he manipulated political issues such as the Schleswig-Holstein Question and the Hohenzollern candidature to antagonize other countries,...

                    Another example of Realpolitik in use is Adolf Hitler's attempt to obtain a predominantly German region of Czechoslovakia called Sudetenland in 1938.

                    very good exemples, arent they?...


                    Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                    I thought there was no sentimentality in the international political arena??

                    By the way the US and other western countries are also hugging the Wahabbi regime and reaping the benifits. Why shouldn't Turkey. Why can Turkey have relations with the Western world but not with it's backyard? You are letting emotions interfere with your views. You are pre-judicial and racially discriminating.

                    this is not a political area but an internet forum and yes I can express my sentiments HERE on this site

                    i dont want to popularize the idea of " no matter what it does it will never be accepted as an equal amongst Western Nations." to the Islamic world ,

                    a PM can not do this while forming its policies...hes incapable or worse...

                    the west is hugging wahabbis yes but they dont want to change their own system by looking Arabs

                    as for racism...pffff

                    check out the earlier posts ans see who said what to who as the answer.


                    Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                    With Europe and the west turning you away your only alternative is reassuming the role of leader of the Islamic world.
                    i meant that we must change this course but this showed your true vision...so you want Turkey to hug Arabs instead of West...

                    Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                    . This is your personal opinion it is also ironic that it is on the same line as the populist guided CHP funded propaganda. The whole world can see the change in Turkey but some circles still deny this fact.
                    and this is YOUR personal opinion.

                    Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                    What was the Turkish GDP prior to the AKP? What was the state of the Turkish Navy prior to the AKP? How long did it take to complete the Bolu tunnel? Who completed this tunnel?
                    it was again not RPP(CHP) who caused that low GDP nor other corruptions,

                    since it was rrightist administrations since 1950..so ask them..

                    btw..we all know the political and economical situation back in 2002 & 2007.

                    Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                    1- who dont produce its indigenous products,
                    2- who's financial system belonging to foreigners 70%
                    3- who is dependent the "hot money" that much
                    4- who is dependent 100% to outsiders energywise

                    Please cite some sources for your assertions
                    1-who dont produce its indigenous products,

                    well, check the Forbes first 500 list and youll see.

                    we have some project and yes i support them like Altay(actually first national tank attempts are dated back in 1943) but most the credit for those are not going to akp...the milgem launched in 1996...tunnel of bolu lanched in 1993....

                    2-who's financial system belonging to foreigners 70%

                    Bankalar

                    check the banks and their partnership structures..

                    aside from the foreign banks listed, there are some banks listed as well as "private banks"

                    the underlined ones are to be added the official foreign funded banks

                    19 AKBANK T.A.Ş.
                    20 ALTERNATİFBANK A.Ş. -
                    21 ANADOLUBANK A.Ş. -
                    22 ŞEKERBANK T.A.Ş. -
                    23 TEKSTİL BANKASI A.Ş.
                    24 TURKISH BANK A.Ş.
                    25 TÜRK EKONOMİ BANKASI A.Ş.
                    26 TÜRKİYE GARANTİ BANKASI A.Ş.
                    27 TÜRKİYE İŞ BANKASI A.Ş.
                    28 YAPI VE KREDİ BANKASI A.Ş.


                    totally here in Turkey it is approx. %66 of banking system is in control of foreigners...

                    in western EU this is around 11-20% eastern EU it increases dramatically around +70-91% especiall where IMF is acting.

                    3- who is dependent the "hot money" that much

                    i ve already gave it?

                    Turkey has the Potential to - WSJ.com

                    So far this year, some 70% of Turkey's current-account deficit has been financed by speculative portfolio investments, compared to just 14% of longer-term FDI, according to the "Emerging Markets Quarterly Report" published by Barclays Capital, early December.
                    4- who is dependent 100% to outsiders energywise

                    ok it is 73%...not 100%..my fault...
                    http://www.dektmk.org.tr/upresimler/...APORU2010SUNUM
                    Last edited by Big K; 19 Jan 11,, 01:20.
                    Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Big K View Post
                      since you quoted from Wikipedia it would be nice to add a link,

                      heres its link Secularism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia,

                      he formed a new one...here is ours as a separate link in your beloved wiki:
                      Secularism in Turkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                      Zubeyde Hanim his wife?...well well...wasnt she his mother and i think you mistyped here!?! Both his mother Zubeyda hanim and his wife Latife hanim wore the turban.

                      and yes i am also against Mme. Gül but not her presence, her "style" which refers/favors a fraction. also i dont think she reflects todays modern Turkish women at all.

                      When did the position of First Lady of Turkey have a requirement to reflect modern Turkish women? Does wearing a piece of cloth over ones head determine whether one is modern or not? What is a modern women? Who determines the standards of modernity? How does forcing someone into modern clothing weigh within a free and democratic society. I thought modernism was all in the brain not in the "gloss" (appearance). We have some men who wear no religious attire yet can be classed as living in the stone age. Again this is all arterficial hype and propaganda created by the secular elitists in Turkey. Take Japan for example. They are very observant of their culture yet they have a very modern lifestyle. Why can't Turkey do the same? Why do we have to determine how and what a person wears? Im sorry but the secular elitists in Turkey have dictator minds. This line of reasoning will not last long in Turkey. Turkish citizens are sick and tired of the State wasting it's energy on 1 sq m of cloth.

                      So by your line of reasoning Her Majesty, The Queen is also not "modern"?


                      By your line of reasoning Madame Obama is also not a "modern" women.


                      And she is a threat to Turkish secularism because?



                      but people like you dont understand that being against dont always means taking action...i am against her and this is a whole new thread about Islam and headscarfs and etc...
                      I don't view her actions as wrong. I respect them and her views. In a democratic society people cannot be forced to dress a certain way or else not be able to benifit from their citizenship in full. In Turkey people who graduate from Islamic High Schools cannot go onto study University. Yet, in Australia, the UK, Germany etc people who graduate from denominational schools can go on to study anywhere they please.

                      o you admit that Mr. Erdogan IS using democracy as a trojan horse for his secret agenda.

                      Not as a trojan horse. His using it for his strategic vision.

                      since you like wiki style heres some Real politik and its users...

                      Realpolitik - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                      Real politik...refers to politics or diplomacy based primarily on power and on practical and material factors and considerations, rather than ideological notions or moralistic or ethical premises. In this respect, it shares aspects of its philosophical approach with those of realism and pragmatism.

                      The most famous German advocate of “Realpolitik” was Otto von Bismarck, the First Chancellor (1862–1890) to Wilhelm I of the Kingdom of Prussia. Bismarck used Realpolitik to achieve Prussian dominance in Germany, as he manipulated political issues such as the Schleswig-Holstein Question and the Hohenzollern candidature to antagonize other countries,...

                      Another example of Realpolitik in use is Adolf Hitler's attempt to obtain a predominantly German region of Czechoslovakia called Sudetenland in 1938.

                      very good exemples, arent they?...

                      I was refering to a concept not how the concept is applied by different individuals. A lot of scientific inventions have dual uses. Sometimes and unfortunately they are used for war, crime and other sickening things.

                      this is not a political area but an internet forum and yes I can express my sentiments HERE on this site By all means. But sentiment shall not be confused with political science.

                      i dont want to popularize the idea of "no matter what it does it will never be accepted as an equal amongst Western Nations." to the Islamic world ,

                      I'm not popularizing anything. I am just giving people an insight into the Turkish PM's perspective. People can get annoyed as much as they want. The reality is that Turkey wants a greater say in international affairs especially in relation to it's backyard. So far, the US and EU want Turkey to play a passive ancillary role. Turkey rejects this. However, Turkey also knows that it cannot yet go it alone. So it is gradually developing the idea of an Islamic union under the auspices of the OIC. He wants to change this passive organisation into an Economically integrated supra-national entity.

                      a PM can not do this while forming its policies...hes incapable or worse...

                      the west is hugging wahabbis yes but they dont want to change their own system by looking Arabs

                      Who said we are changing our system for the Arabs? Look at the EU. There are monarchies and Republics all under the one roof. Why can't we have a similar Economic union with the OIC members? We don't need to loose our secular structure. It does not mean we are going to become a theocratic republic or a theocratic manarchy. Again this is the same propaganda Secular elitists are scaring the Turkish public with. It has no basis.

                      as for racism...pffff
                      Read your comments about "the Arabs backstabbing us"

                      check out the earlier posts ans see who said what to who as the answer.

                      i meant that we must change this course but this showed your true vision...so you want Turkey to hug Arabs instead of West... If the EU rejects Turkey, we have no other alternative but to create an alternative supra-national entity. I think you are confusing unions with Military pacts. Forming a OIC economic zone does not mean we are going to become an enemy of the west. Turkey will never be an enemy of the West. If your girl friend cheats on you, and marries someone else most men don't beg her to divorce the other man and come back.

                      and this is YOUR personal opinion.

                      it was again not RPP(CHP) who caused that low GDP nor other corruptions,

                      It was the secular elistists who can be found in all parts of Turkish society.

                      since it was rrightist administrations since 1950..so ask them.. All post-1950's governments were pupets of you know who

                      btw..we all know the political and economical situation back in 2002 & 2007.

                      1-who dont produce its indigenous products,

                      well, check the Forbes first 500 list and youll see.

                      we have some project and yes i support them like Altay(actually first national tank attempts are dated back in 1943) but most the credit for those are not going to akp...the milgem launched in 1996...tunnel of bolu lanched in 1993....I asked you how long it took under previous governments to complete the Bolu tunnel. You fail to mention the ANKA UAV, RADARS, INDEGENOUS FIGHTER etc

                      2-who's financial system belonging to foreigners 70%

                      Who owns the worlds largest chocolate producer? Who owns the Eclipse business Jet? Turkish people also have majority shares in many International Companies. It's called globalisation.

                      Bankalar

                      check the banks and their partnership structures..

                      aside from the foreign banks listed, there are some banks listed as well as "private banks"

                      the underlined ones are to be added the official foreign funded banks

                      19 AKBANK T.A.Ş.
                      20 ALTERNATİFBANK A.Ş. -
                      21 ANADOLUBANK A.Ş. -
                      22 ŞEKERBANK T.A.Ş. -
                      23 TEKSTİL BANKASI A.Ş.
                      24 TURKISH BANK A.Ş.
                      25 TÜRK EKONOMİ BANKASI A.Ş.
                      26 TÜRKİYE GARANTİ BANKASI A.Ş.
                      27 TÜRKİYE İŞ BANKASI A.Ş.
                      28 YAPI VE KREDİ BANKASI A.Ş.


                      totally here in Turkey it is approx. %66 of banking system is in control of foreigners... So what? We own banks abroad!

                      in western EU this is around 11-20% eastern EU it increases dramatically around +70-91% especiall where IMF is acting.

                      3- who is dependent the "hot money" that much

                      i ve already gave it?

                      Turkey has the Potential to - WSJ.com



                      4- who is dependent 100% to outsiders energywise
                      The EU is also dependent on foreign sources for energy. A mj
                      ok it is 73%...not 100%..my fault...
                      http://www.dektmk.org.tr/upresimler/...APORU2010SUNUM
                      ...
                      .....
                      Last edited by denizkuvetleri; 19 Jan 11,, 13:29.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                        ...When did the position of First Lady of Turkey have a requirement to reflect modern Turkish women?
                        .....
                        lol...see? you have NOTHING but a headscarf issue...lol

                        the headscarf wasnt the main element of our discussion yet it seems you only focused on this matter...

                        remember your post :
                        [QUOTE]...E.g. He obviously did not ban the headscarf in the Presidential palace as evidenced by his turbaned wife (Zubeyda hanim) living there. Yet today's secular elite in Turkey was against Madame Gul's presence in the Cankaya Compound...[QUOTE]

                        and i expressed my opinion shortly...and the result...you didnt pay attention to banking & energy situation but you ferociously tried to defend the Mme. Gül's headscarf.

                        i know this attitude very well...anyone who dont obey you is your "enemy"...isnt it?

                        being against and expressing that is not a danger, dont worry...i am still against her headscarf and yes she should reflect us...but its her decision i respect yet i am against it IMO.

                        btw i am also against headscarf ban in Universities (not in public services). BUT THE HEADSCARF IS NOT THE THREAD NOW!

                        Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                        I was refering to a concept not how the concept is applied by different individuals. A lot of scientific inventions have dual uses. Sometimes and unfortunately they are used for war, crime and other sickening things. .
                        now this is a very dangerous point of view because : (in case you may not read it carefully)

                        Real politik...refers to politics or diplomacy based primarily on power and on practical and material factors and considerations, rather than ideological notions or moralistic or ethical premises. In this respect, it shares aspects of its philosophical approach with those of realism and pragmatism.
                        no ideological /moral / ethic notions?....so you defend that the end justifies the means???...now this is the motto of all dictators...

                        Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                        Who said we are changing our system for the Arabs? Look at the EU. There are monarchies and Republics all under the one roof. Why can't we have a similar Economic union with the OIC members? We don't need to loose our secular structure. It does not mean we are going to become a theocratic republic or a theocratic manarchy. Again this is the same propaganda Secular elitists are scaring the Turkish public with. It has no basis.
                        i didnt say changing the systems...but it is obvious that you mention we turn our back to EU and West (because they let us down according to your logic) and hug the Islamic republics...

                        let me remind you your(Erdogans?!) logic.

                        bad bad EU dont take us as equals => therefore we will turn our back to them (look at your previous posts!) => therefore we must form an alternative Islamic/Arab? Economic?! union and lead it=> this union can be with a lesser!! secularism...

                        if you dont see anything in this logic its ok to me...

                        Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                        Read your comments about "the Arabs backstabbing us"
                        seems you have a problem with the history or reading or both...

                        i sad "they bacstabbed us"...and it is true....if you care to see the history...they formed an alliance with British when we (their Muslim Brothers?!!!) were fighting to defend the holy lands against British...

                        so on which basis you want me to trust them instead of Westerners?....and apparently you never read Sun Tzu's Art of War...."keep your friends close but enemies closer"

                        Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                        If the EU rejects Turkey, we have no other alternative but to create an alternative supra-national entity. I think you are confusing unions with Military pacts. Forming a OIC economic zone does not mean we are going to become an enemy of the west. Turkey will never be an enemy of the West. If your girl friend cheats on you, and marries someone else most men don't beg her to divorce the other man and come back.
                        If the EU rejects?...well well well...isnt it clear especially after Southern Cyprus's acceptance?...

                        Erdogan and others....are they still dreaming of EU?....if so...this means that they are not capable of administrating(i dont think so) a country...if not (i think this is the case) this means that they are sctually playing a game to all of us...


                        Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                        It was the secular elistists who can be found in all parts of Turkish society.
                        this is a huge paradox and a very dangerous remark...since you blame all the bad things to those ghostly "elites" who can be found in all!?! parts of Turkish society...(btw if you can find it in all parts..then it is not an elite..and according the definition of elitism )

                        manipulation and ochlocracy again...

                        Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                        All post-1950's governments were pupets of you know who
                        so you admit their incompetence...a progress at least...

                        Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                        I asked you how long it took under previous governments to complete the Bolu tunnel. You fail to mention the ANKA UAV, RADARS, INDEGENOUS FIGHTER etc
                        look at the phrases above...since 1950..rightist puppet govts...not RPP(CHP)...

                        Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                        Who owns the worlds largest chocolate producer? Who owns the Eclipse business Jet? Turkish people also have majority shares in many International Companies. It's called globalisation.
                        globalisation is good for who can create technology...and who have the capital...its prey is the countries like ours...

                        i told
                        totally here in Turkey it is approx. %66 of banking system is in control of foreigners... So what? We own banks abroad!

                        in western EU this is around 11-20% eastern EU it increases dramatically around +70-91% especiall where IMF is acting.

                        3- who is dependent the "hot money" that much

                        i ve already gave it?

                        Turkey has the Potential to - WSJ.com
                        you answered as this..

                        Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                        So what? We own banks abroad!
                        ...if it is a "so what" issue for you...nothing left to say...this is one of most important issues...

                        make a research about Rotschildt family...read the book, Rothschilds; The Financial Rulers of Nations....for the possibilities...

                        you have NO idea that is for sure....

                        i told :
                        4- who is dependent 100% to outsiders energywise

                        ok it is 73%...not 100%..my fault...
                        Originally posted by denizkuvetleri View Post
                        The EU is also dependent on foreign sources for energy.
                        and everytime they enter a collision path with Russia...Russia shrinks their collar's leash...

                        why do you think that we started to closing the gap between Armenia & Turkey?...what was the most important move made by Russians during their Osetia campaing?.....

                        no no it was a democracy & self determination fight isnt it?
                        Last edited by Big K; 19 Jan 11,, 20:21.
                        Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

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                        • #13
                          Turkey Looks To Assert Rising Influence With Troubled Neighbors

                          As the fortunes of American diplomacy wax and, more importantly, wane over the region and as the leading light of Riyadh gets quietly turned off, Turkey has assumed a new prominence in mediating key regional issues. Witness Lebanon-

                          Lebanon Shows Shift Of Influence Within Mideast-NYT Jan. 18, 2011
                          "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                          "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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