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Thread: Ask An Expert- Battleships

  1. #106
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    Ok...finally...time to ask the experts. Yesterday I was looking at the government liquidation site. Lo and behold there were 15 16" gun barrels listed for disposition and cutup. Wow..over 3M lbs of metal. Some of the pictures listed manufacture date (40's and some 50's) and serial numbers. Is there any list of serial numbers v what ships these were used on.
    Last edited by biggerisbetter; 08 Mar 11, at 17:49.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by biggerisbetter View Post
    Ok...finally...time to ask the experts. Yesterday I was looking at the government liquidation site. Lo and behold there were 15 16" gun barrels listed
    for disposition and cutup. Wow..over 3M lbs of metal. Some of the pictures listed manufacture date (40's and some 50's) and serial numbers. Is there any list of serial numbers v what ships these were used on.
    *There is not a list per say open to the public record, However, when the barrel or barrels are replaced, their serial numbers are recorded in the logs as well as shipyard records. This has been SOP since WWII. This way they can trace which guns have gone where or when they had their final machining from a blank to allow insert of all breech mechanisms. Dalhgren would have also recorded this number for testing after refurbishing. Not long ago Dalhgren discovered that they had spare barrels from USS Pennsylvania and donated them to the Museum in 2008.

    Link to the article: USS Pennsylvania, damaged at Pearl Harbor, may be gone but her guns survive

    Other guns we know of have been aboard different ships after testing and refurbishment and relining such as the USS Arizona's guns (2 we believe) found aboard USS Nevada after modifications.

    A clip from the book:

    Nevada then headed to New York to have her gun barrels relined.[1] In addition, her 14 in (360 mm)/45 cal guns from Turret 1 were replaced with the Mark 8 guns from turret 2 of Arizona; these new guns were relined to Mark 12 specifications.[79][80] After that was completed, she sailed for the Pacific, arriving off Iwo Jima on 16 February 1945.

    It is not the only time this would happen. USS Arizona's guns would also be used as a shore gun emplacements The Navy decided that the Army would receive gun turrets No. 3 and 4 for use as coastal defense guns. Two sites were selected: one at Mokapu Head (Kaneohe) known as Battery Pennsylvania and the second at an area known today as Electric Hill (HEI generating plant) on the western shore of Oahu, up the slopes of the Wianae Mountains. Only Battery Pennsylvania was completed. A test firing took place four days before the surrender of Japan. Today both sites are abandoned; the guns were removed and cut up for scrap shortly after the war ended.

    Link:http://www.library.arizona.edu/exhib...ey/az_hist.htm

    A close up drawing of Arizona's wreckage confirms all guns removed except Turret 1 still has all three rifles. Turret 2 only had the guns removed. Turrets 3 & 4 have been removed in total.

    http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013924b.jpg
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 08 Mar 11, at 18:45.
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  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought View Post
    *There is not a list per say open to the public record, However, when the barrel or barrels are replaced, their serial numbers are recorded in the logs as well as shipyard records. This has been SOP since WWII. This way they can trace which guns have gone where or when they had their final machining from a blank to allow insert of all breech mechanisms. Dalhgren would have also recorded this number for testing after refurbishing. Not long ago Dalhgren discovered that they had spare barrels from USS Pennsylvania and donated them to the Museum in 2008.

    Link to the article: USS Pennsylvania, damaged at Pearl Harbor, may be gone but her guns survive

    Other guns we know of have been aboard different ships after testing and refurbishment and relining such as the USS Arizona's guns (2 we believe) found aboard USS Nevada after modifications. It is not the only time this would happen. USS Arizona's guns would also be used as a shore gun emplacements The Navy decided that the Army would receive gun turrets No. 3 and 4 for use as coastal defense guns. Two sites were selected: one at Mokapu Head (Kaneohe) known as Battery Pennsylvania and the second at an area known today as Electric Hill (HEI generating plant) on the western shore of Oahu, up the slopes of the Wianae Mountains. Only Battery Pennsylvania was completed. A test firing took place four days before the surrender of Japan. Today both sites are abandoned; the guns were removed and cut up for scrap shortly after the war ended.

    Interesting. Is there anything further I can find out. Just interested to see the history of these specific barrels.
    Here is the link...0001 - Uncategorized at Government Liquidation


    A clip from the book:

    Nevada then headed to New York to have her gun barrels relined.[1] In addition, her 14 in (360 mm)/45 cal guns from Turret 1 were replaced with the Mark 8 guns from turret 2 of Arizona; these new guns were relined to Mark 12 specifications.[79][80] After that was completed, she sailed for the Pacific, arriving off Iwo Jima on 16 February 1945[1] to "[prepare] the island for invasion with heavy bombardment";
    Interesting. Is there any further information I can access? I would like to see where these barrels have been before they ended up at Hawthorne.
    Here is the link......0001 - Uncategorized at Government Liquidation

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by biggerisbetter View Post
    Interesting. Is there any further information I can access? I would like to see where these barrels have been before they ended up at Hawthorne.
    Here is the link......0001 - Uncategorized at Government Liquidation
    The ones located at Hawthorne would have been brand new barrels and were scrapped. There are few spares left in existence. Some on display and some within Dalhgren and perhaps a few others.

    This would be the inspections before scrapping: That is unless some course of action prevented them from being scrapped.

    The numbers you are seeing corresponds to the dates of inspection. If you notice you have 1944 (when new) 1955 (before regunning as they were through 1957) after Korea and one inspection in 1969 for the one barrel shown. Perhaps for if the New Jersey had proceded for her second tour of Vietnam. Notice no 1980's markings as they would have been inspected and then istalled during the refit period.

    I took this from the Barrel wear thread I posted. There you will find relining for all of the USN battleships.

    BB-61- Iowa – Dec. 1955 Norfolk Navy Yard.

    BB-62 – New Jersey – 1957 New York Navy Yard/ Bayonne NJ before mothballing. 1984 (actually later according to a reliable source here on WAB) replacement gun in turret two. Long Beach California.

    BB-63 – Missouri –1954 Bethesda Ma. Washington Navy Yard via Norfolk Navy Yard.

    BB-64 – Wisconsin – Not regunned. Refitted and inspected but barrels maintained (see note below concerning shaving the liners).
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 08 Mar 11, at 19:52.
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  5. #110
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    In 1968, nine barrels were sent to the U.S. Naval Base in Subic Bay, Phillipines as replacements (if needed) for the New Jersey on tour in Viet Nam. When we closed Subic Bay (due to the Phillipine Government raising the "rent" way to high -- besides we had already closed Clark AFB there after a Volcano buried it in ash) we brought the barrels back to LBNSY and stored them out on the Mole.

    When the shipyard closed, the barrels were declared by the Navy as "excess" and anybody could have them BUT had to pay their own transportation costs. The barrels were to be put in the bottom of dry dock one for cutting up. Unfortunatly the floating crane carrying one of those barrels made a wrong turn and decided to "dump" the barrel on the side lawn of the Los Angeles Maritime Museum in San Pedro. That barrel is now on display in front of the museum.

    Interestingly, the same wrong turn was made when the last of the four Queen Mary propellers was to be moved for scrapping (one prop is on the Q.M., one is at the Los Angeles County Museum, one is at Disneyland and the fourth one is now at the Maritime Museum).

    Of the remaining eight barrels, six were chopped up and literally destroyed with carbon arc cutting tools. However, the remaining two were shipped to the China Lake Naval Weapons Test Station out in the Mojave Desert. They were going to be used in some type of experiment but the program was called off and they are still just laying there under the Sun.

    The two trucks that transported them were really heavy duty haulers. One barrel each was transported on one very high flatbed trailer each. The trailers were high because they rode on 24 wheels each. After all, one barrel weighs about 118 standard tons and the trailers needed a lot of rubber to distribute the load over as many square feet as possible.
    Last edited by RustyBattleship; 08 Mar 11, at 21:50.
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  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought View Post
    The ones located at Hawthorne would have been brand new barrels and were scrapped. There are few spares left in existence. Some on display and some within Dalhgren and perhaps a few others.

    This would be the inspections before scrapping: That is unless some course of action prevented them from being scrapped.

    The numbers you are seeing corresponds to the dates of inspection. If you notice you have 1944 (when new) 1955 (before regunning as they were through 1957) after Korea and one inspection in 1969 for the one barrel shown. Perhaps for if the New Jersey had proceded for her second tour of Vietnam. Notice no 1980's markings as they would have been inspected and then istalled during the refit period.

    I took this from the Barrel wear thread I posted. There you will find relining for all of the USN battleships.

    BB-61- Iowa – Dec. 1955 Norfolk Navy Yard.

    BB-62 – New Jersey – 1957 New York Navy Yard/ Bayonne NJ before mothballing. 1984 (actually later according to a reliable source here on WAB) replacement gun in turret two. Long Beach California.

    BB-63 – Missouri –1954 Bethesda Ma. Washington Navy Yard via Norfolk Navy Yard.

    BB-64 – Wisconsin – Not regunned. Refitted and inspected but barrels maintained (see note below concerning shaving the liners).
    Thank you and Rusty for your replies. It looks like from a couple of the pictures that there are other barrels sitting there. So I guess these aren't the last of their kind.

  7. #112
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    Agreed Rusty they were floated, upon barge into the wetwell of USS Gunston Hall (LSD-5) for transport to Subic the Phillipines. Not sure which ship they came home upon though when Subic closed. I know they were there for some time afterwards though.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 09 Mar 11, at 01:11.
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  8. #113
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    As per topic: USS Pennsylvania later recieved her last refit, USS Oklahoma's 14 inch guns later in life during refit . These would be the ones she was sunk with after the Bikinni Tests and after the close of WWII.

    USS Oklahoma although disarmed never made it home from Pearl to go to the breakers, she was lost and sunk during the journey home in a storm someplace 500 miles off Pearl.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 09 Mar 11, at 01:13.
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  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBattleship View Post
    In 1968, nine barrels were sent to the U.S. Naval Base in Subic Bay, Phillipines as replacements (if needed) for the New Jersey on tour in Viet Nam. When we closed Subic Bay (due to the Phillipine Government raising the "rent" way to high -- besides we had already closed Clark AFB there after a Volcano buried it in ash) we brought the barrels back to LBNSY and stored them out on the Mole.

    When the shipyard closed, the barrels were declared by the Navy as "excess" and anybody could have them BUT had to pay their own transportation costs. The barrels were to be put in the bottom of dry dock one for cutting up. Unfortunatly the floating crane carrying one of those barrels made a wrong turn and decided to "dump" the barrel on the side lawn of the Los Angeles Maritime Museum in San Pedro. That barrel is now on display in front of the museum.

    Interestingly, the same wrong turn was made when the last of the four Queen Mary propellers was to be moved for scrapping (one prop is on the Q.M., one is at the Los Angeles County Museum, one is at Disneyland and the fourth one is now at the Maritime Museum).

    Of the remaining eight barrels, six were chopped up and literally destroyed with carbon arc cutting tools. However, the remaining two were shipped to the China Lake Naval Weapons Test Station out in the Mojave Desert. They were going to be used in some type of experiment but the program was called off and they are still just laying there under the Sun.

    The two trucks that transported them were really heavy duty haulers. One barrel each was transported on one very high flatbed trailer each. The trailers were high because they rode on 24 wheels each. After all, one barrel weighs about 118 standard tons and the trailers needed a lot of rubber to distribute the load over as many square feet as possible.
    Then we must also include those on display and those that reside in Dahlgren's collection. Hawthorns guns were supposed to be destroyed after their "final" retirement. Are we stating they are all still there and the their destruction countermanded?

    Just asking...I might want one if I can afford the shipping.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 09 Mar 11, at 01:14.
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  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought View Post
    Then we must also include those on display and those that reside in Dahlgren's collection. Hawthorns guns were supposed to be destroyed after their "final" retirement. Are we stating they are all still there and the their destruction countermanded?

    Just asking...I might want one if I can afford the shipping.
    Dunno. Have to go over the list of the Navy's Battleship Spare Parts list to see if they are there. Besides, we only took one from Hawthorne, NV for center barrell, turret II replacement on New Jersey. It was shipped by a flatbed rail car. The Rail car was not rated for that kind of load and had to be scrapped afterward.

    Roller bearings in the car trucks don't roll too well when they have flat spots in them.
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  11. #116
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    I do love machining and industrial processes. I can only daydream about seeing one of these barrels formed from raw materials, bored, and rifled. It had to be a truly epic process, one I suspect can no longer be done, as the necessary tooling has probably long since been scrapped.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chogy View Post
    I do love machining and industrial processes. I can only daydream about seeing one of these barrels formed from raw materials, bored, and rifled. It had to be a truly epic process, one I suspect can no longer be done, as the necessary tooling has probably long since been scrapped.
    *Some of the locations where this was performed still exist, even so if they didnt (the originals) they still very much have the means to do it although seldom ever mentioned since they are supposed to be "retired". It would take time but the barrels that are presently in place on the ships would do the job no doubt while the logisitcs of relining them are resurrected and refined.
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    After taking a much closer look at the spare barrels that were scheduled for distruction (although later then record hold) as of January 2011. So they very much are still in existence.

    The requirements for their destruction are as follows;

    There are still 15 barrels and accessories for rail transportation. All work will be done at Hawthorne.

    A few requirements:

    BREECH - Demil "D" - Will be torched completely through breech locking lugs.
    GUN TUBE - Demil "D" - Will be cut into no more then 8 foot sections.

    The use of precision torch fixtures, precision cutting saws, or precision tools of any kind to minimize mutilation is forbidden.

    All torch cutting will displace at a minimum, 1/2" of metal.

    DoD 4160.21-M-1, Appendix 7 (as noted).

    http://www.govliquidation.com/forms/...Event-8057.pdf
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 09 Mar 11, at 18:25.
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  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought View Post
    After taking a much closer look at the spare barrels that were scheduled for distruction (although later then record hold) as of January 2011. So they very much are still in existence.

    The requirements for their destruction are as follows;

    There are still 15 barrels and accessories for rail transportation. All work will be done at Hawethorne.

    A few requirements:

    BREECH - Demil "D" - Will be torched completely through breech locking lugs.
    GUN TUBE- Demil "D" - Will be cut into no more then 8 foot sections.

    The use of precision torch fixtures, precision cutting saws, or precision tools of any kind to minimize mutilation is forbidden.

    All torch cutting will displace at a minimum, 1/2" of metal.

    DoD 4160.21-M-1, Appendix 7 (as noted).

    http://www.govliquidation.com/forms/...Event-8057.pdf
    Yes, there are still there awaiting cutup. Having to be de-milled...is it REALLY thought that they would end up in the hands of someone, or government that would actually make a long-toss weapon out of them? In one of the pictures taken at the breech end of one of the fifteen...there are other similar barrels pictured....any guess as to the total at Hawthorne?

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by biggerisbetter View Post
    Yes, there are still there awaiting cutup. Having to be de-milled...is it REALLY thought that they would end up in the hands of someone, or government that would actually make a long-toss weapon out of them? In one of the pictures taken at the breech end of one of the fifteen...there are other similar barrels pictured....any guess as to the total at Hawthorne?
    Its standard op procedure for the military to liquidate them. Not that they would fall into any hands, its just their organized way to ensure they are no longer in inventory and destroyed.

    From the pictures (if they are different and not taken some days in a row) then there are more then 15 gun tubes. Some of these appear slight smaller, perhaps just the angle. Only a recently dated picture would be able to show exactly how many are there.

    This is one of a few locations known to store them, at last look Dahlgren still had 8 barrels perhaps even 9 which could be considered as one full change out for three turrets. Some of these locations also have Howitzer barrels for the Army.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 09 Mar 11, at 19:41.
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