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Thread: Ask An Expert- Battleships

  1. #1636
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battleship IOWA View Post
    I am developing a virtual reality HUP 2 flight simulator to go with our new HUP 2. Because the HUP is so fragile we will not be able to allow guests to enter.
    I am proposing 2 missions SAR and gunfire support for the 16 inch guns.
    My question to the experts is how did a pilot or observer radio back the corrections. Was it simply left 20, right, long & short. Or did the use the compass, North, South and how did they accurately know how far left it really was or do they just guess? Thanks
    According to http://aviation.watergeek.eu/hup2-panel.html there is a DG and compass in the panel. To hold a constant heading on a featureless horizon with something as unstable as a helicopter you would use some sort of heading indicator. Even in an ASR/PAR environment a heading indicator helps with begin/stop turn/ left/right of course. I believe X planes software has a model of the Hup. You may want to contact Precision Flight Controls https://flypfc.com/ tell them what you are trying to do, they might blow you off but they build all sorts rotorcraft sims and I believe xplanes is the software they use.
    Last edited by Dazed; 04 Nov 16, at 21:24.

  2. #1637
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    If memory serves, wasn't one of the novelties of the HUP-2 an autopilot?

  3. #1638
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    I only see a HUP providing shipboard utility services, transport, and rescue missions for the Navy and general utility for the Army. The Army found them unsuitable for any front line use.
    True I found no evidence that a HUP ever did gun fire correction for the Iowa but I figured it would make for a better game than delivering mail. So we will call this a hypothetical mission.
    But it will not be our first hypothetical VR experience. Our first VR experience is being made for us for free, by a company called Roqovan http://www.roqovan.com/ in exchange for the use of the ship for a game launch party. Below is a link to a rough draft of the VR experience. It will be one of the most asked question on the Iowa “What if the Iowa and the Yamato ever got in a gun battle”. I am assured by them that we will win.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/mtns6u620b...18-70.mp4?dl=0

    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post
    The correct answer is "It depends" Target location could be sent to the ship/gunline using various methods. (map spot, shift from known point...) Then corrections could be sent using more methods.
    Shift from known point with corrections from the Observer-Target line or with corrections from the Gun -Target line being the most used. It takes a lot of chatter on the radio between the shooter and the spotter to decide which one to use and they will change based on various factors

    Being a sim used by lesser mortals (untrained observers) you would want to use a simple left/right up/down corrections based on observations from your position. Its gotta be fun with a hint of realism

    Do we "Guess" corrections? Hell No. Amateurs make guess. We SWAG

    We are professionals, the greatest killers on the battlefield.

    We are able to look at the impact of the rounds, mentally account for a multitude of variables, Height of observer, distance to target, speed of our platform, distortion from the windshield, relationship between the angle of the observer to target line and the gun to target line, position of the ship and its position on the gun line. (neither the ship or the aircraft are stationary) and and within seconds produce an accurate correction known by the acronym SWAG.

    No a "Guess" but a Scientific Wild Ass Guess
    Thanks that was funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dazed View Post
    According to http://aviation.watergeek.eu/hup2-panel.html there is a DG and compass in the panel. To hold a constant heading on a featureless horizon with something as unstable as a helicopter you would use some sort of heading indicator. Even in an ASP/PAR environment a heading indicator helps with begin/stop turn/ left/right of course. I believe X planes software has a model of the Hup. You may want to contact Precision Flight Controls https://flypfc.com/ tell them what you are trying to do, they might blow you off but they build all sorts rotorcraft sims and I believe xplanes is the software they use.
    Thanks that is very helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigjimslade View Post
    If memory serves, wasn't one of the novelties of the HUP-2 an autopilot?
    From what I read early HUP’s where hard to fly so they added the vertical stabilizers on the tail adding the autopilot allowed then to be removed.

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    Last edited by Battleship IOWA; 05 Nov 16, at 04:40.
    Craig Johnson

  4. #1639
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBattleship View Post
    Well, I don't know how much experience you have had flying an airplane, but I used to fly Cessnas quite a bit (until I got married - again). We used an aeronautical chart that gave you the locations of landing fields, land marks, directional transmitters, etc. The charts were all marked as to what direction MAGNETIC North was in that area as opposed to TRUE North. You made your flight plan based upon the charts. You have TWO compasses. One for Magnetic and one for true North.

    If you plan to land at an airport on the ground, you contacted the control tower that would give you the directions of your downwind leg, crosswind leg, landing leg and which runway to land on (if they had more than one). But things can get more complex, such as Ontario. But that's another story.

    If you plan to land on an Aircraft Carrier, their control center will also give you basically the same instructions. However, as you approach the ship you have to watch the Paddles of the LSO (Landing Signal Officer) to go up, down, left, right, wave off or cut your engines to catch hook 2 or 3. But we don't use an LSO anymore on the BIG Carriers. We now use the Fresnel Lens system which is rows of red or green lights to direct your approach.

    On the Battleships, we used a control tower operator to get you lined up to the stern and then a live LSO directing you in to the center spot of the circle. You cut your rotors while four men run up with tie down chains so you won't have any wind turbulence until it's safe for the Yellow Gear Tractor to tow you to either to Port or Starboard stowage area to be chained down again. Umm, usually after they have folded the rotor blades as it gets pretty close to Turret III.
    Thanks Rusty not being a pilot I count on experts like you. This forum has been very valuable for me. I think I now have enough information to get bids from, content developers.
    Craig Johnson

  5. #1640
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    OOPS! My reply is on the wrong page.

    See it down below.
    Last edited by RustyBattleship; 05 Nov 16, at 06:06.
    Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

  6. #1641
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjimslade View Post
    I obtained this measured drawing of the aft Tomahawk platform during a visit to NARA. It shows the platform extending to 38' 6" off the centerline.
    Attachment 42456
    When I look at pictures, I say "this just can't be." In particular, the angled pillars reaching up from the deck below would be nearly vertical at this width. This must be some early drawing that shows things being way too narrow.

    The Booklet of General Plans are what they are However, in this picture I have superimposed over them the deck as obtained from the plan above (red) and my best determination of the deckhouse below (blue). The General Plans go out about 4' wider than shown in this measured plan. That 4' extra feet might just do the trick.

    Attachment 42457

    Unfortunately, the shape of the deck on the Booklet of General Plans is no way, no how correct. The diagonal side of the aft deckhouse is the one thing that I think I can say is in the right position with the greatest confidence in the entire model. From Pictures one can see that the aft end of the Tomahawk platform merges with the deckhouse on the right (starboard) side. While the General Plans does this, the position of that merge is about 2 feet outside where the deckhouse is.

    Therefore, I can't just follow the Booklet of General plans because it is not right either.

    Does anyone have a source the would identify the X/Y coordinates of the corners of the harpoon platform?

    This is the challenge of doing things in 3D. When people do 2D plans, a line in the wrong place on one deck does not create an obvious error. When you go to 3D, it does create an obvious error.
    You have to remember that the Booklets of GENERAL Drawings are done AFTER the installation plans are issued AND the actual installation is done. Sometimes after the plans are issued, a highter "god" may order a few changes. AND, as time goes on, ADDITIONS are thrown in such as tracks for an A-frame for loading at sea rather than at a solid pier.

    Been there, done that.

    Now, if you are going by plans of the New Jersey, we installed two ABL's on the aft ends of the aft 03 level deck that were built by FMC (Food Machinery Corporation). Their foundations were a different size and slightly different shape than the other ABL's built by General Dynamics.

    So, go by the actual installation drawings because the main reason for the Booklet is to just show you the GENERAL locations of decks, stiffeners, shell plating, equipment, etc. Consider the Booklets as a Class B road map rather than a surveyed meteorlogical chart.
    Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

  7. #1642
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    Slight correction to my above answer. The booklet was drawn up based upon the first issue of the plans. Then Earl Naval Weapons Center in Colt's Neck, N.J. had to ADD on extra width and length to those platforms. That required a revision to the original plans. Apparently you were not given the REVISED drawings. Then the booklet was revised to fit the larger platforms.

    Actually I think the additional deck area was a SEPARATE drawing done between TWO Design Sections (250.11 Fittings & 250.i2 Structural). But that's stretching my memory back an awful long ways back.

    Believe me, it was a confusing time as I was the Structural Project Leader for all structural modifications and placement of extra armor. Then later after being promoted (temporarily) as Configuration Manager for all four ships of the class and observed a test of loading a Tomahawk using a rolling A-frame, even I have to scratch my head as to what ship had what on it.

    Hmmm. Maybe that's why my hair is so thin now.
    Last edited by RustyBattleship; 05 Nov 16, at 22:06.
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  8. #1643
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    I am amazed at how you guys (and the original builders) did this at all in the days before widespread 3D CAD programs.

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    ABL Dimensions

    I'm still looking for ABL dimensions. I have found these metric dimensions

    http://www.shipbucket.com/forums/vie....php?f=5&t=319

    but I don't know what is being measured. For example, going vertically, the ABLs on the IOWA have 3 tiers. I would guess at least one of these tiers is not included in the height.

    If anyone has some information here, it would be appreciaed.

  10. #1645
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjimslade View Post
    I am amazed at how you guys (and the original builders) did this at all in the days before widespread 3D CAD programs.
    Like you, I am amazed that the design of the Iowa Class Battleships were done with just a slide rule and perhaps an electro-mechanical Marchant calculator that spun a dozen or so numbered wheels around faster than a Vulcan Phalanx Gatling gun.

    But we are professional draftsmen, we think in 3 dimensions already, most of us started in the shops (I was a ship fitter aka steel worker), and having copies of Rourke's Formulas for Stress and Strain as well as a couple of other manuals listing sizes and grades of metal (steel or aluminum) beams also helps.

    Besides, the US Navy is VERY safety oriented and duplicates lots of systems within their ships so if the port side fire and flushing system gets knocked out the starboard system will take over.

    I recall a young engineer (just out of college) reporting for work and a few weeks later he was really bitching and complaining of how we over design the mast of a Destroyer he was assigned to work on. I merely explained that the mast isn't going to set out in the middle of Death Valley where air barely moves. This mast must stay totally intact when the ship does a 30 degree roll with a 15 degree pitch in a 100 knot wind, punch its way through a Typhoon, slug it out with some shore batteries and go back through that same Typhoon again.
    Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

  11. #1646
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    This has kept me up for nights: Does anyone know why the Iowa's have 2 different propellers? (Ok, it's really 4 but for our purposes it's 2).

  12. #1647
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjimslade View Post
    This has kept me up for nights: Does anyone know why the Iowa's have 2 different propellers? (Ok, it's really 4 but for our purposes it's 2).
    I suppose you're referring to the differences in diameter and number of blades between the inboard propellers (17' diameter, five-bladed) and the outboard propellers (18' 3" diameter, four-bladed) ?

    In case I'm not misinterpreting your question, these differences are meant to avoid (as much as possible) the severe longitudinal vibrations experienced on the North Carolina-class BBs (and the Atlanta-class CLs).

    PS 1 : I'm sure I have a sketch of the Phalanx CIWS together with various dimensions somewhere on a disc drive, but I haven't been able to locate it so far.

    PS 2 : Would you happen to have a sketch of the 5"/38 Mark-28 twin mount showing the same details as what's below for the 5"/38 Mark-30 single mount ?

    Last edited by SW4U; 07 Dec 16, at 12:55.

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    This is the version on the Iowas (Mod 2). There are several variants used on other ships.
    Name:  cat-0252 IOWA.jpg
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  14. #1649
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjimslade View Post
    This is the version on the Iowas (Mod 2). There are several variants used on other ships.
    Name:  cat-0252 IOWA.jpg
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    OP-1112 of course !!!

    Thanks a lot for your help. :-)
    Last edited by SW4U; 07 Dec 16, at 20:54.

  15. #1650
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjimslade View Post
    This has kept me up for nights: Does anyone know why the Iowa's have 2 different propellers? (Ok, it's really 4 but for our purposes it's 2).
    The propeller shafts are four different lengths and each one has a slight angle downwards as the go aft -- one shaft per engine room. Shafts 1 & 4 (the outboard shafts) are a bit shorter and can come out through the diaper plates in the hull higher above the keel than shafts 2 & 3 which go through the twin keels and come out lower.

    So shafts 1 & 4 cab take the larger diameter 4-bladed propeller where as then inboard shafts need the smaller diameter 5-bladed propeller so they don't dig into the harbor bottom.
    Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

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