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Thread: Ask An Expert- Battleships

  1. #1621
    Defense Professional RustyBattleship's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjimslade View Post
    In the attached I have an image showing the outline of the Iowa deckhouse at the main deck level (red). The numeric data in the plans shows a knuckle at the black line.

    In the modernizations the supports for the Phalanx, Tomahawk, and Harpoon platforms are roughly show in yellow.

    From pictures it looks like the outer face of this support is flat and and parallel to the center line and aligned with the deckhouse below. Yet, it would sit above this knuckle.

    Does anyone know what was done here? Is there a knuckle here at all? If so, does the support above bend to follow this knuckle? Or was something else done?


    Attachment 42396
    It would certainly help if you showed the pictures you used for your diagram. Based upon the shape of the hull you are showing the port side of the ship. The red lines show the upper handling rooms of the 5"/38 mounts 54 & 56. That puts your black line at about frame 120 (small boat stowage). The Harpoon site was further aft between frames 126 & 128. Those platforms originally were designed to mount a cargo crane. Later they were modified to to mount a quad 40mm AA gun. During modernization we removed the quad 40 and put the Harpoons in.

    Since I have inspected all four Iowa class ships during their modernization in the 1980's and now have one a 25 minute drive from my house, I have never, ever seen a knuckle in that 1 1/2" thick STS armor deck in that area. Besides, the yellow lines you show are of the CIWS deck house on 03 level.

    I happen to have a copy of the Mold Loft Offsets and believe me, there is NO KNUCKLE in that deck. What you are probably mis-interpreting is a Butt Strap of 5/8" thick steel plate, 15" wide riveted to the main deck plating but UNDER the 2 1/2" thick teakwood decking.

    Umm, yeah. During decking replacements I've tripped over more butt straps than I care to remember.
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  2. #1622
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    More information on the deckhouse shape

    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBattleship View Post
    It would certainly help if you showed the pictures you used for your diagram. Based upon the shape of the hull you are showing the port side of the ship. The red lines show the upper handling rooms of the 5"/38 mounts 54 & 56. That puts your black line at about frame 120 (small boat stowage). The Harpoon site was further aft between frames 126 & 128. Those platforms originally were designed to mount a cargo crane. Later they were modified to to mount a quad 40mm AA gun. During modernization we removed the quad 40 and put the Harpoons in.
    Sorry for being misleading. Uploading here is an iterative process of cutting until the file fits the restrictions of the board. Here I have underlaid the image from the booklet of general plans for location reference. The yellow dots are offsets taken from tabular data at NARA.

    The datapoints give a straight line from the corner where the deckhouse juts in (triangular locker) going aft and another straight line (running parallel to the centerline) going from the corner near the refueling kingpost extending forward.

    Those two lines intersect at the location marked with the blue line (which happens to be the location of a data point at FR119).

    Either there is a knuckle at this location or the data is incorrect (which I suspected). The question then become what IS correct? It is possible that the deckhouse was cut back to make room for boats during the 80's?

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    Here is the same general area (moved the view back) showing how the Floating Drydock plan covers it. The side of the deckhouse forward of the aft/maindeck 5" mounting moves in a foot from the side aft of the mounting. That would push the knuckle forward.

    On the other hand, the booklet of general plans qualitatively indicates that this segment is continuous between the two gun mounts. That would make the sides below the phalanx mount angled (which they do not appear to be).

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    And the Floating Drydock planbook (WWII era) does not show this indentation in the deckhouse. AND, it shows a knuckle approximately at FR119. This image is of the port side. Sorry for the confusion of switching sides but the segmented image has the frame locations more clearly marked on the port side. To this image I have added my own gray line so show the knuckle on the plan.

    If anyone has some plans giving offsets from the centerline of this area it would be helpful to figure all this out.

    This is the problem of making everything fit in 3D. There are huge internal inconsistencies in the various plans when you try to fit them all together.

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  3. #1623
    Defense Professional RustyBattleship's Avatar
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    Sorry, all I can do is based upon my inspections of all 4 Iowa class Battleships in the 1980's, Missouri in the late 90's for the Hawaii group and Iowa (several times) for the PBC.

    Even with rotted and broken wood deck covering, I have never seen a knuckle of any sort in the main deck area you show. As I said before, which I will check out while on the Iowa for Veterans Day, is there is probably a transverse butt strap there. Where the STS plating is not welded, riveted butt straps are used instead.

    This does add some "flexibility" to the hull plating to allow for hog and sag during heavy seas. That is why there is an expansion joint in the superstructure going from the main deck, up to 03 level, crossing both 02 & 03 levels at about frame 116.

    When I have the time (and remembering what to do) I will research the Mold Loft Offsets to see if there is any indication of a need for a butt strap.

    Your best bet would be to come out to California and visit Iowa herself.
    Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

  4. #1624
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    Thanks,

    If you could supply the offsets, I could go from there. I don't see a knuckle at FR119 in pictures. Yet I see it in the data and the FD planbook. I trust my eyes (and yours) more than the plans. Even though the angle is small (1.86 deg.) I would think that you could see it if it be there.

    To add to my confusion, here's an image I dug up from plans I photographed at NARA. it shows BOTH the indentation at the turret base and the knuckle a FR119.
    The FD planbook shows no indentation and a knuckle.
    The FD 1980s plans shows the indentation and no knuckle.
    Here is both the knuckle and the indentation.

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    Last edited by bigjimslade; 26 Oct 16, at 01:12.

  5. #1625
    Defense Professional RustyBattleship's Avatar
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    I really don't see any difference in those scans. BUT, you will notice, to the far right, the superstructure expansion joint at frame 115/116. There is a structural watertight bulkhead BELOW main deck at frame 119 that goes through some crew berthing on 2nd deck. It is likely (but not logical in MY mind) to have a non-welded portion of the Main Deck centered over a bulkhead using only the watertight bulkhead below to seal off the riveted butt strap (two of them, one on top and one below). But then, we are trying to reinterpret 1930's design principles where the closest thing we had for a computer was a slide rule.

    So it really isn't illogical to have a butt strap CLOSE TO but NOT AT the same frame of the expansion joint.

    But it's too late at night now and I want to watch another recording of NCIS (who I did some research for one time -- but without the "C"). Sure wish I had a partner like some of the gals they have on those shows.
    Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

  6. #1626
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    I put for an alternate theory. It is possible that there is a BEND at FR119 rather than a KNUCKLE?

    In the attached I have a rendering in which I have put a small radius at FR119 and the angle change (<2 deg.) is much less noticeable than I expected.

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    I'm not very good with lighting but here's an angle that makes it more prominant.

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    Last edited by bigjimslade; 26 Oct 16, at 19:20.

  7. #1627
    Defense Professional RustyBattleship's Avatar
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    Sorry pal. I've researched the mold loft offsets and there is absolutely no indication that a "knuckle" should be there in the deck.

    However, under the Main Deck at frame 119 is a watertight bulkhead welded to the underside of the Main Deck. But that deck is essentially 1 1/2" thick of STS (armor) plate and no welding underside would cause a knuckle as it would on only a 1/4" to 3/8" thick Medium Steel plate.

    But there may be a butt strap at that frame. I do not have the deck plating and/or the butt strap location plans. So the next time I go aboard the Iowa, I will inspect the underside of bhd 119 to see if there is one there. If there is, a second butt strap would be on the topside but hidden by the wood decking on top of it.
    Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

  8. #1628
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    Thanks. It would be interesting to see what the offsets are along that level.

  9. #1629
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjimslade View Post
    Thanks. It would be interesting to see what the offsets are along that level.
    There are hundreds of pages to the Mold Loft Offsets. I don't have that many years left in me to copy them all. But if you have a Booklet of General Plans, there is a section view at a frame very close to 119 and they are exactly alike except for identify what compartments are inboard of the shell plating.
    Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

  10. #1630
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    I am developing a virtual reality HUP 2 flight simulator to go with our new HUP 2. Because the HUP is so fragile we will not be able to allow guests to enter.
    I am proposing 2 missions SAR and gunfire support for the 16 inch guns.
    My question to the experts is how did a pilot or observer radio back the corrections. Was it simply left 20, right, long & short. Or did the use the compass, North, South and how did they accurately know how far left it really was or do they just guess? Thanks
    Craig Johnson

  11. #1631
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    I only see a HUP providing shipboard utility services, transport, and rescue missions for the Navy and general utility for the Army. The Army found them unsuitable for any front line use.

  12. #1632
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battleship IOWA View Post
    I am developing a virtual reality HUP 2 flight simulator to go with our new HUP 2. Because the HUP is so fragile we will not be able to allow guests to enter.
    I am proposing 2 missions SAR and gunfire support for the 16 inch guns.
    My question to the experts is how did a pilot or observer radio back the corrections. Was it simply left 20, right, long & short. Or did the use the compass, North, South and how did they accurately know how far left it really was or do they just guess? Thanks
    Well, I don't know how much experience you have had flying an airplane, but I used to fly Cessnas quite a bit (until I got married - again). We used an aeronautical chart that gave you the locations of landing fields, land marks, directional transmitters, etc. The charts were all marked as to what direction MAGNETIC North was in that area as opposed to TRUE North. You made your flight plan based upon the charts. You have TWO compasses. One for Magnetic and one for true North.

    If you plan to land at an airport on the ground, you contacted the control tower that would give you the directions of your downwind leg, crosswind leg, landing leg and which runway to land on (if they had more than one). But things can get more complex, such as Ontario. But that's another story.

    If you plan to land on an Aircraft Carrier, their control center will also give you basically the same instructions. However, as you approach the ship you have to watch the Paddles of the LSO (Landing Signal Officer) to go up, down, left, right, wave off or cut your engines to catch hook 2 or 3. But we don't use an LSO anymore on the BIG Carriers. We now use the Fresnel Lens system which is rows of red or green lights to direct your approach.

    On the Battleships, we used a control tower operator to get you lined up to the stern and then a live LSO directing you in to the center spot of the circle. You cut your rotors while four men run up with tie down chains so you won't have any wind turbulence until it's safe for the Yellow Gear Tractor to tow you to either to Port or Starboard stowage area to be chained down again. Umm, usually after they have folded the rotor blades as it gets pretty close to Turret III.
    Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

  13. #1633
    Defense Professional RustyBattleship's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    I only see a HUP providing shipboard utility services, transport, and rescue missions for the Navy and general utility for the Army. The Army found them unsuitable for any front line use.
    That's absolutely true. That's what they were designed for. Not a combat aircraft but for Rescue and Cargo. However, I'm assuming (hoping) we paint ours in the beautiful Navy Blue. The Army colors look like overaged mustard.
    Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

  14. #1634
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battleship IOWA View Post
    My question to the experts is how did a pilot or observer radio back the corrections. Was it simply left 20, right, long & short. Or did the use the compass, North, South and how did they accurately know how far left it really was or do they just guess? Thanks
    The correct answer is "It depends" Target location could be sent to the ship/gunline using various methods. (map spot, shift from known point...) Then corrections could be sent using more methods.
    Shift from known point with corrections from the Observer-Target line or with corrections from the Gun -Target line being the most used. It takes a lot of chatter on the radio between the shooter and the spotter to decide which one to use and they will change based on various factors

    Being a sim used by lesser mortals (untrained observers) you would want to use a simple left/right up/down corrections based on observations from your position. Its gotta be fun with a hint of realism

    Do we "Guess" corrections? Hell No. Amateurs make guess. We SWAG

    We are professionals, the greatest killers on the battlefield.

    We are able to look at the impact of the rounds, mentally account for a multitude of variables, Height of observer, distance to target, speed of our platform, distortion from the windshield, relationship between the angle of the observer to target line and the gun to target line, position of the ship and its position on the gun line. (neither the ship or the aircraft are stationary) and and within seconds produce an accurate correction known by the acronym SWAG.

    No a "Guess" but a Scientific Wild Ass Guess
    Its called Tourist Season. So why can't we shoot them?

  15. #1635
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    Another Detective Question: Tomahawk Platform

    I obtained this measured drawing of the aft Tomahawk platform during a visit to NARA. It shows the platform extending to 38' 6" off the centerline.
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    When I look at pictures, I say "this just can't be." In particular, the angled pillars reaching up from the deck below would be nearly vertical at this width. This must be some early drawing that shows things being way too narrow.

    The Booklet of General Plans are what they are However, in this picture I have superimposed over them the deck as obtained from the plan above (red) and my best determination of the deckhouse below (blue). The General Plans go out about 4' wider than shown in this measured plan. That 4' extra feet might just do the trick.

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    Unfortunately, the shape of the deck on the Booklet of General Plans is no way, no how correct. The diagonal side of the aft deckhouse is the one thing that I think I can say is in the right position with the greatest confidence in the entire model. From Pictures one can see that the aft end of the Tomahawk platform merges with the deckhouse on the right (starboard) side. While the General Plans does this, the position of that merge is about 2 feet outside where the deckhouse is.

    Therefore, I can't just follow the Booklet of General plans because it is not right either.

    Does anyone have a source the would identify the X/Y coordinates of the corners of the harpoon platform?

    This is the challenge of doing things in 3D. When people do 2D plans, a line in the wrong place on one deck does not create an obvious error. When you go to 3D, it does create an obvious error.

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