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  • Originally posted by Chogy View Post
    Huge differences - the U.S. Marines were enveloped, were the "city" in this scenario. The NVA were the besiegers, well disbursed over a large area.

    Let's turn it around - the NVA have unlimited B-52's, and they use them on Khe Sanh. After an appropriate BUFF bombardment, they storm the base. There'd be Marine survivors, and the NVA would take casualties, but the effect of an aerial assault of that magnitude on a concentrated location is going to be catastrophic for the defenders.
    Sir,the Khe San base was not a city and nothing resembling a big city.Historically speaking,the Luftwaffe laid Stalingrad flat,only to hamper the 6th Army.RAF and USAAF also laid Caen flat,with no battle winning effect.Yeah,the 100 or so B-52's can drop ~3000 tons in one trip and can return whenever they wish.You'll kill some,maybe a lot soldiers and civilians,but at the same time you'll make a perfect defensive position and at the same time cancel any chance of combined arms operations inside the city by your own ground component.Dozers can get killed easier than tanks and AFV's cannot climb a mountain of debris.NVA survived in less favorable terrain and the area of a large modern city is larger than the area occupied by the NVA around Khe San.

    I agree that concentrated firepower on a small target cannot harm the attacker's interests,but bombing a city of 2-3 millions several times today is actually droping the same concentration of ordnance that Caen received,when the payload is compared to the area of the defensive position.
    There is another thing.Making repeated trips to a target creates oportunities for the defending AD.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

    Comment


    • Originally posted by tankie View Post
      Hahahahahah aww bless ya ,, nahhh they were cavalry , donkey wallopers dressed in green , , tankies were the originals dressed in black ,1st recruited from naval gunners to man the 1st tanks:whome:
      Perhaps in your Army...not the US.

      Remember our guys say...."If you aint Cav, you aint shit!"

      We usually responded, "If you ARE Cav......."
      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
      Mark Twain

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
        Perhaps in your Army...not the US.

        Remember our guys say...."If you aint Cav, you aint shit!"

        We usually responded, "If you ARE Cav.
        ......"
        We agree however some of our cavalry reg have/had great traditions ,,but most are going if not gone , of course the guards wont be touched :whome: from 1969 we had 5 RT,Regiments , soon to be , THE ROYAL TANK REGIMENT ,,all amalgamated into one , we cant defend the isle of white now , frig knows about the Falklands unless we borrow some boats off the frogs to get there :slap:

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        • Here is another one for you tankie.

          Just like the others. An engineer vehicle, driven by an engineer who never went to tank school

          Sherman BARV
          The British BARV (Beach Armoured Recovery Vehicle) was designed, developed and operated by the REME (Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers) as a recovery vehicle for use during amphibious landings in high surf.
          Attached Files
          Last edited by Gun Grape; 04 Sep 12,, 23:44.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mihais View Post
            Sir,the Khe San base was not a city and nothing resembling a big city.Historically speaking,the Luftwaffe laid Stalingrad flat,only to hamper the 6th Army.RAF and USAAF also laid Caen flat,with no battle winning effect.Yeah,the 100 or so B-52's can drop ~3000 tons in one trip and can return whenever they wish.You'll kill some,maybe a lot soldiers and civilians,but at the same time you'll make a perfect defensive position and at the same time cancel any chance of combined arms operations inside the city by your own ground component.Dozers can get killed easier than tanks and AFV's cannot climb a mountain of debris.NVA survived in less favorable terrain and the area of a large modern city is larger than the area occupied by the NVA around Khe San.

            I agree that concentrated firepower on a small target cannot harm the attacker's interests,but bombing a city of 2-3 millions several times today is actually droping the same concentration of ordnance that Caen received,when the payload is compared to the area of the defensive position.
            There is another thing.Making repeated trips to a target creates oportunities for the defending AD.
            I have already freely admitted that airpower alone cannot win anything, but I maintain that a truly concentrated bombardment with heavy jet bombers, using modern ordnance, could have an overwhelming effect. It hasn't even happened yet, so yes, I am speculating a bit.

            Any notion that such a bombardment would improve the defensive conditions for the defenders, I reject absolutely. Remember, we were initially discussing a siege scenario. "Surrender, or face obliteration." Stalingrad is a poor example for two reasons... First, the density of the German bombardment, the frequency, was a miniscule portion of what could be done today, with bombs primarily in the 100 and 250 kg size, using contact fuzes and cases incapable of any real penetration. Secondly, and more importantly, the Soviets could reinforce Stalingrad, and ultimately the German flanks were exposed. Reinforcement definitely changes the equation.

            At Khe Sanh, the NVA had the benefit of an overhead canopy covering almost 100% of their operation, over an immense amount of terrain. and they had the freedom to move about unseen. I'd say what they had in terms of concealment was equal to or superior even to a brick and stone city.

            If I were a ground commander tasked to tame an urban area, and I had to choose between a stupefied, shell-shocked, and severely depleted force which has probably lost the bulk of any stored supplies, vs a city with intact structures, hidden armories, bunkers, enfilade-ready streets, intact booby traps and mines at critical road junctions (but we've got nice clean roads for my vehicles), I know what I'd choose.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
              Here is another one for you tankie.

              Just like the others. An engineer vehicle, driven by an engineer who never went to tank school
              oo oo looook ,,a Sherman TANK modified i wonder who showed em how to operate/drive em :whome:

              Hey guess what , every reg has a reme attachment .

              Heres how a tank sqd was made up when i served , 4 sabre troops of 3 tanks , officer / sgt / cpl . then HQ sqd there were 4 sqd of sabre HQ ,,A /B /C Sqds each sqd had its own HQ which consisted of tanks one of which was a dozer with a blockbuster gun driven and worked by tankies ,and an ( arv reme)

              Then we had recce sqd , all tankies on ferrets , MT all tankies .;)

              then clerks who didnt deserve to wear the badge , shiny arsed pen pushers .:puck:
              Last edited by tankie; 05 Sep 12,, 12:44.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tankie View Post
                oo oo looook ,,a Sherman TANK modified i wonder who showed em how to operate/drive em :whome:.
                It is modified, right? They even modified the steering/commands, after all they are engineers.

                If they had some more budget, it might have been operated by a remote control
                Last edited by Doktor; 05 Sep 12,, 12:43.
                No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tankie View Post
                  its a very well know fact that tankies are far superior to any other corps , so take that :whome:
                  I'm sorry I thought I settled this particular issue in a previous post :confu: Typing slowly so that the poor armoured dude can keep up - artillery, artillery artillery

                  But on a more serious note. Isn't the real game changer now for assaults on urban areas the multitude of different drone types available to combat units down to the squad level these days. Speaking purely as a novice of course I would imagine that it much tougher on the defender having to deal with 24/7 low altitude surveillance.
                  Last edited by Monash; 06 Sep 12,, 11:45.
                  If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                  Comment


                  • The drones help, sure. So do the PGM available. I am talking not just the 250 pound LGB but also the GMLRS rocket and the Excalibur GPS guided 155mm. But it is still a combined arms fight with the infantry working with tanks and engineers.
                    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                    Mark Twain

                    Comment


                    • More questions for the army guys. What fuel does the M1 burn? Does it use the same type as Bradley, Stryker, and heavy trucks? Does the M1's APU use the same fuel as the main engine? Does it have a separate fuel tank?
                      "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Monash View Post

                        But on a more serious note. Isn't the real game changer now for assaults on urban areas the multitude of different drone types available to combat units down to the squad level these days. Speaking purely as a novice of course I would imagine that it much tougher on the defender having to deal with 24/7 low altitude surveillance.
                        Long ago I saw a demo of the Israeli Skylark system.In the end,one of the characters has a line like this:''No surprises in urban combat;I miss the old days''.
                        Those poor Pals,of course,had no surveillance cameras,sensors and drones of their own.They just did their part,moved when they had to move and died when they had to die.In real life Hezb sent drones against Israel and means to create death are in every electronics shop,with knowledge being all over the place.
                        Whoever wins the recce battle wins the battle.Same with hussars as with 21st century robots.The defense is the more powerfull form of combat,because the attacker has to move against the defender.When the defender can see that,he has the advantage.Your suspects(in the police work) or dumb Talibans cannot see,thus creating a somewhat abnormal situation that favors the attacker(for now).Defense will catch fast.It will still be a game of initiative,daring and willingness to put your life at risk.That's valid for combat in general,not only urban combat.
                        Those who know don't speak
                        He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                        Comment


                        • They Army uses JP8 in just about everything. Its a pretty good fuel and GREATLY eases logistics.

                          JP-8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                          Mark Twain

                          Comment


                          • because the attacker has to move against the defender
                            That's why some 5,500 years ago they invented the Siege.
                            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Chogy View Post
                              I have already freely admitted that airpower alone cannot win anything, but I maintain that a truly concentrated bombardment with heavy jet bombers, using modern ordnance, could have an overwhelming effect. It hasn't even happened yet, so yes, I am speculating a bit.

                              Any notion that such a bombardment would improve the defensive conditions for the defenders, I reject absolutely. Remember, we were initially discussing a siege scenario. "Surrender, or face obliteration." Stalingrad is a poor example for two reasons... First, the density of the German bombardment, the frequency, was a miniscule portion of what could be done today, with bombs primarily in the 100 and 250 kg size, using contact fuzes and cases incapable of any real penetration. Secondly, and more importantly, the Soviets could reinforce Stalingrad, and ultimately the German flanks were exposed. Reinforcement definitely changes the equation.

                              At Khe Sanh, the NVA had the benefit of an overhead canopy covering almost 100% of their operation, over an immense amount of terrain. and they had the freedom to move about unseen. I'd say what they had in terms of concealment was equal to or superior even to a brick and stone city.

                              If I were a ground commander tasked to tame an urban area, and I had to choose between a stupefied, shell-shocked, and severely depleted force which has probably lost the bulk of any stored supplies, vs a city with intact structures, hidden armories, bunkers, enfilade-ready streets, intact booby traps and mines at critical road junctions (but we've got nice clean roads for my vehicles), I know what I'd choose.
                              If I were the ground commander I'd ask my air force to bomb said infrastructure,cut power,water and burn food depots.All this while eating a MRE with the lads and watching the fireworks.After that,they can stay above and do as I say and nothing else.
                              A city offers not only concealement,but cover.Yes,your 1000kg bombs will make every building a ruin.You'll level 2000 or so buildings at every raid and kill everyone there.Meanwhile,the rest of the defenders will move in the destroyed area.An old saying says a shell does not land in a shell crater,so it will only be natural for them to move.Shocked they may be,but this is only temporary.Damaged defenses can be replaced.Give them 2-4 hours and they'll have new defenses.Unlike before,IPB is more difficult this time,precisely because the area cannot be recognised.I can see the fire sectors,key terrain and avenues of aproach on a map,air photo or even google maps.I can plan a route through a city.I cannot do that through the ruins before they can set their defenses.And I cannot see where they are dug in,because under each boulder there can be a wire leading to a newly set mine and practically everywhere there may a combat position.It's recon by death.
                              The point is that rubble is the best terrain for a determined defender and the worst for the attacker.It doesn't matter what sort of munition causes this rubble.Unless the air or arty attack can be exploited fast(in a matter of minutes) by a maneuver force,the attacker will be outwitted by the defender.
                              Those who know don't speak
                              He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                                That's why some 5,500 years ago they invented the Siege.
                                Yes.But up until recently,the besieger had to eat what was available locally(which ended fast),had to sit in not so hygienic conditions etc... Generally,being inside sucked less than being outside,thus the concept of fortification was such a success.
                                Those who know don't speak
                                He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                                Comment

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