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Turkish engineers kidnapped in Afghanistan

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  • Turkish engineers kidnapped in Afghanistan

    Turkish engineers kidnapped in AfghanistanFrom Matiullah Mati, CNNDecember 26, 2010 8:44 a.m. EST
    http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapc...ers.kidnapped/
    (CNN) -- Four Turkish engineers were kidnapped in the eastern Afghan province of Paktia on Sunday, the acting governor told CNN.

    Acting Gov. Abdul Rahman Mangal said that the engineers were kidnapped in Shpola village, which is one kilometer from the Pakistan border near Para Chinar and Korm Agency.

    "The engineers had six armed Afghan local guards for protecting them. They were building the Afghan national police post in the province since one year (ago)," Mangal said.

    "Afghan and ISAF security forces including the elders of the province are trying to rescue them, but if they have been transferred to other side of the border in Pakistan we will not be able to do anything," he added.
    Should not these people have NATO escorts?

  • #2
    Why? They are muslim engineers. I'd think these men would be safe among their religious kin. Afterall, they're building a simple police station. Should NATO troops be tied down protecting them for one full year within one mere kilometer of the Pakistani border? Wouldn't such an enduring presence be counter-productive given the many alternative missions while also inviting attack upon these men?

    Of course, the Turkish contingent could have been expanded to provide for their security. That might seem reasonable in retrospect.

    Alas...
    Last edited by S2; 27 Dec 10,, 01:48.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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    • #3
      Originally posted by S-2 View Post
      Why? They are muslim engineers. I'd think these men would be safe among their religious kin. Afterall, they're building a simple police station. Should NATO troops be tied down protecting them for one full year within one mere kilometer of the Pakistani border? Wouldn't such an enduring presence be counter-productive given the many alternative missions while also inviting attack upon these men?

      Of course, the Turkish contingent could have been expanded to provide for their security. That might seem reasonable in retrospect.

      Alas...
      What people don't understand is that religion or Islam is not the problem in Pakistan or Afghanistan. It is about control and self-interest. The Taliban and al-Qaida etc do not care about religion or Islam. They are there for self-interest. Islam is their vehicle to attain these personal goals and ambitions. Islam is a veil for their ambitions. What NATO intelligence agencies should be doing is focusing on the true ambitions of these groups.

      The Turks are there biggest enemies. Why? Ataturk and the Turks was/are staunchly against the use of religion for personal gain. The Turkish view of religion can be summarised as follows: Religion is between God/Supreme being and the individual. A religion cannot be imposed by a State nor can it be supressed by the State. A State cannot have a religion. For a State cannot go to the mosque, church or synagogue and pray. Religion is best left for the private family domain. As such, the Turkish ideology is a direct threat to those who use religion to suppress their citizens and their citizens democratic ideals and ambitions.

      These groups are worried that the Turks may influence the muslim Afghani peoples and Kemalist ideology may gain ground in Afghanistan.

      My thoughts go out to the families of those who have been kidnapped.

      Comment


      • #4
        denizkuvetleri Reply

        "What people don't understand..."

        Which "...people..."? Be specific. There are a lot of very, very perceptive folks involved with ISAF's efforts in Afghanistan. These include social scientists, language and cultural experts, and counter-insurgency specialists of the first order.

        You diminish the forethought going into the collective effort on behalf of Afghans by such a generalization.

        "The Turks are there [sic] biggest enemies...As such, the Turkish ideology is a direct threat to those who use religion to suppress their citizens and their citizens democratic ideals and ambitions"

        There are a few western ideologies and values that can be perceived as threats to the taliban. Your attempt to elevate Turkish secularism above all other threats isn't reflected in the rhetoric expressed by the taliban ideologues. None of whom I'm aware among taliban visionaries have singled out the Turkish model as a primary target of their aggression.

        "These groups are worried that the Turks may influence the muslim Afghani peoples and Kemalist ideology may gain ground in Afghanistan."

        Show me the commentary reflecting as much.

        You asked-
        "Should not these people have NATO escorts?"

        I replied, noting both the modest size of the project, the long time-span involved in its completion and the very close proximity in which NATO forces would be placed to taliban sanctuaries were they to openly protect these men throughout the entire tenure of their work.

        You've considered none of these responses. Why? Aren't they reasoned? Instead, you resort to an unproven diatribe regarding taliban loathing of Kemalism and your opinion that such is seen as greatest threat to a taliban return to power.

        I wish you'd more carefully consider your arguments. I try to carefully consider my replies. Should this pattern continue, it may prove difficult continuing any meaningful dialogue with you.

        I hope you'll explain why it was important for NATO to invest troops over a year's time in close proximity to taliban sanctuary and the liklihood that such would have actually drawn more attacks, not less, down upon these turkish engineers.

        "My thoughts go out to the families of those who have been kidnapped"

        Of course. We pray for their safety and speedy return from captivity.
        "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
        "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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        • #5
          i think that the talibunnies needed some basic engineering skills :P
          Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

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          • #6
            It is a possibility that these guys have run off to join the Taliban.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by snapper View Post
              It is a possibility that these guys have run off to join the Taliban.
              These engineers have gone through the Turkish University system. They are very highly unlikely to become Taliban supporters or members. They have gone through the highest levels of clearences by the Turkish Chief of the General Staff amongst other Turkish government agencies before being posted on foreign soil.

              Turkey has it's very religious, but the large majority of them also condemn the Taliban and Al-Quaeda etc. The Turks are sickend to death when they see individuals commiting crimes against humanity in the name of religion. Turkey has also been the victim of Al-Quaeda (and its associates) attacks on numerous occasions.

              People need to get out of the muslim = terrorist OR muslim = potential terrorist subconcious mind set and its various manifestations. It's not like every muslim has a DNA tendency to become a terrorist.

              Comment


              • #8
                denizkuvetleri,

                The little reading( Fiction i.e. Orhan Pamuk..etc and non-Fiction Print & TV) that I have done on Turkey has prompted me to think that your country is moving at a fair pace towards a more Islamic identity.

                How much do the words of Mr Erdogan when he say's The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets.. reciprocate in the minds of ordinary Turks.

                Are the younger generation more attracted to an Islamic Identity than a Secular one.. as seen in Immigrant Turks ?


                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Currywurst View Post
                  denizkuvetleri,

                  The little reading( Fiction i.e. Orhan Pamuk..etc and non-Fiction Print & TV) that I have done on Turkey has prompted me to think that your country is moving at a fair pace towards a more Islamic identity.

                  How much do the words of Mr Erdogan when he say's The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets.. reciprocate in the minds of ordinary Turks.

                  Are the younger generation more attracted to an Islamic Identity than a Secular one.. as seen in Immigrant Turks ?


                  Ah the Islamic vs Secularism/Laïcitism dichotomy again:

                  Firstly, the doctrine of secularism is not synonymous with atheism, or a rejection of religion. Nor is it an alternative for religion. Secularism is the notion that government or other State entities should exist separately from religion and/or religious beliefs. Hence, the Turkish peoples did not abandon Islam when they adopted secularism. We were and are still a muslim majority country. What Ataturk did was push religion and theology into the private domain, where it rightly belonged. It drew a bold line between religion and State affairs. Ataturk did not seek to abolish religion. Some are under the mistaken belief that Ataturk hated Islam and sought to remove it from Turkish public life. This is grossly misleading. In fact, it might be startling for some but Ataturk attended an Islamic school. Zubeyde hanim, Ataturk's mother was also a very devout muslim. Ataturk's first wife wore the Burka etc etc. Ataturk wanted to eliminate the exploitation of Islam for personal initiatives.

                  Hence, I don't understand or comprehend what people mean when they ask: Is Turkey going to have an Islamic Identity or a secular identity. It's quite simple: The majority of the contituents of the State that is the majority of the citizens of the Turkish Republic have an Islamic Identity. An Islamic identity which also has a secular orientation. Turkish Imams preach inter-faith dialogue, peace and respect for people of other faiths.
                  The Turkish State on the other hand and it's organs are staunchly secular. That is, the State does not favour or profess a particular religion.

                  I think what the veiled question that some are trying to ask is: Is Turkey going to become another Iran and a headache for the West. The answer is simple even if Turkey abadons secularism it would in fact be an arch rival to Iran. As stated in my earlier posts the Turks belong to the Hanafi school of Islam. They don't believe in any form of violence for religious reasons etc.

                  You ask: Are the younger generation more attracted to an Islamic Identity than a Secular one.. as seen in Immigrant Turks ?
                  The answer is quite simple: the younger generation of Turks are no different from their European equivalents. They are attending university/technical schools, surfing the internet, clubbing with their friends, and being normal teenagers etc etc. The Turkish street is not similar to for example the Pakistani street. Islam or religion has no bearing on the individual's deeds. Educational enlightenment together with economic stability is the key to a reasonable and sensible individual that can self-reason.

                  With regard to the AK Party:
                  The Ak party is the Islamic equivalent of the Christian Democrats in Europe (Particularly Germany). They are Conservative Democrats. There is no element of radicalism or violence associated with these parties. As such they are allowed in a democratic and free world.

                  With regard to the Turkish PM:
                  The quote above is not the direct words said by Erdogan himself. At the time Erdogan was not PM and he was quoting a famous Turkish poet . He was subsequently arrested and spent time in prison for the paraphrasing this poet. PM Erdogan does not incite hatred, violence or any other form of disrespect for others. He has initiated sweeping reforms upon coming to power. He has accepted the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights and also signed and ratified all international treaties with respect of human rights etc. He has gone further and taken steps to ensure that the treaties are in fact applied through the development of State mechanism. Dictators etc do not widen the powers of it's citizens. They kerb them. PM Erdogan is no dictator or ill-man. He is working with the west on many projects and is well respected by his collegues.

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