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Ak74

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  • #61
    Bill,
    It looks like the 5.56 is good at either soft tissue or penetration. What 5.56 would you pick if you had to do a little of both? hedging your bet so to speak.
    Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

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    • #62
      Well, sticking to military rounds, the new Mk318 MOD SOST round looks like a winner, and it is available for civilian purchase.

      Any of the federal LE (Law Enforcment) bonded core JHPs are very good too. These are considered to be "Barrier blind" rounds. For hunting or civilian defense loads, any of the bonded core or Barnes solid copper hunting loads would work well too.

      The same is true for pistol rounds too. The bonded core and solid copper designs far outpace conventionally jacketed bullets in most barriers, especially auto glass.

      Keep in mind though that any bonded core or controlled expansion round will not match the destruction of fragmenting rounds like the Mk262, M193, or even the M855, when it actually fragments. Of the fragmenting rounds, the 77gr Mk262 fragments the soonest, the most often, at the lowest velocity, and has the most weight to work with. It is also a match grade round. But it's a long round, and won't stabilize in all 1:9" barrels. It works fine in mine though, but i use a version with the slightly shorter OAL Nosler 77gr OTM round. Military Mk262 uses a Sierra matchking 77gr OTM bullet.

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      • #63
        Thanks. I will look into it when I go to another gun show to stock up again.
        Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

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        • #64
          What is the current SF use for Mk 262 Mod. 0 then? Is it a marksman's bullet, or something loaded into every soldier's carbine as needed?
          All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
          -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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          • #65
            It's originally intended for use in the Mk11 AR sniper variant. It then was expanded for use in all SOCOM M4s and SBRs as availability allowed, but i don't know if they're still using it for that role, or if the rest of the Army in general used it, though i suspect anyone that could get their hands on it in the supply chain would happily use it.

            EXCERPT from a Guns and Ammo article on Mk262:

            http://www.gunsandammo.com/content/b...s-mk-262-mod-1

            "When a five-man Special Forces team looking for Scuds in Iraq ran into a reinforced Iraqi infantry company, the future looked grim for the Americans. Facing overwhelming odds, it was quickly decided that three men armed with sniper rifles would cover a hasty retreat back to the LZ. With these odds death--or worse--seemed certain.

            Yet the ensuing firefight did not go as the Iraqis had planned. Rather than being overwhelmed, the three Americans instead put down a hail of highly accurate rifle fire. Advancing against this murderous wall, entire sections of Iraqi infantry were simply cut down. Screaming and rattling away with their Kalashnikovs on full auto, they were knocked from their feet by carefully aimed shots. When staggering losses finally broke their spirit, the surviving Iraqis either threw down their weapons or simply ran away. Scattered about lay the bodies of 167 of their comrades. The Iraqi dead lay in mute testimony to the Americans' tenacity and marksmanship skill.

            With the criticism of poor terminal performance leveled by many on the 5.56x45, you would think those 167 Iraqis were cut down by 7.62mm M14s. Such was not the case. They fell to 5.56 Mk 12 sniper rifles firing 77-grain Mk 262 Open Tip Match ammunition. Developed to offer increased accuracy, range and improved terminal performance over the standard 62-grain M855 load, the Mk 262 has performed quite well in actual combat. This impressive combat record has stimulated a great deal of interest among civilian shooters, so we thought we'd take a look at this load and its Russian and Chinese counterparts."

            The variant of Mk262 that i use is made by a company called Doubletap, and is loaded beyond 5.56mm chamber pressures, exceeding the velocity of Mk262 Mod1 by about 100fps with a Nosler 77 gr OTM bullet.
            Last edited by Bill; 03 Feb 11,, 01:34.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Bill View Post
              It's originally intended for use in the Mk11 AR sniper variant. It then was expanded for use in all SOCOM M4s and SBRs as availability allowed, but i don't know if they're still using it for that role, or if the rest of the Army in general used it, though i suspect anyone that could get their hands on it in the supply chain would happily use it.

              EXCERPT from a Guns and Ammo article on Mk262:

              Black Hills' Mk 262 Mod 1 | Rifles | Guns & Ammo

              "When a five-man Special Forces team looking for Scuds in Iraq ran into a reinforced Iraqi infantry company, the future looked grim for the Americans. Facing overwhelming odds, it was quickly decided that three men armed with sniper rifles would cover a hasty retreat back to the LZ. With these odds death--or worse--seemed certain.

              Yet the ensuing firefight did not go as the Iraqis had planned. Rather than being overwhelmed, the three Americans instead put down a hail of highly accurate rifle fire. Advancing against this murderous wall, entire sections of Iraqi infantry were simply cut down. Screaming and rattling away with their Kalashnikovs on full auto, they were knocked from their feet by carefully aimed shots. When staggering losses finally broke their spirit, the surviving Iraqis either threw down their weapons or simply ran away. Scattered about lay the bodies of 167 of their comrades. The Iraqi dead lay in mute testimony to the Americans' tenacity and marksmanship skill.

              With the criticism of poor terminal performance leveled by many on the 5.56x45, you would think those 167 Iraqis were cut down by 7.62mm M14s. Such was not the case. They fell to 5.56 Mk 12 sniper rifles firing 77-grain Mk 262 Open Tip Match ammunition. Developed to offer increased accuracy, range and improved terminal performance over the standard 62-grain M855 load, the Mk 262 has performed quite well in actual combat. This impressive combat record has stimulated a great deal of interest among civilian shooters, so we thought we'd take a look at this load and its Russian and Chinese counterparts."

              The variant of Mk262 that i use is made by a company called Doubletap, and is loaded beyond 5.56mm chamber pressures, exceeding the velocity of Mk262 Mod1 by about 100fps with a Nosler 77 gr OTM bullet.
              I think the piss poor tactics by the Iraqis vs the superior training of special forces was a bigger factor than ammo used. Sounds like WW1 mass wave vs machine gun tactics.
              Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

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              • #67
                Your opinion is noted.

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                • #68
                  I freely admit I was not there at the time so it it what it is...my opinion.
                  Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

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                  • #69
                    Were you not the one that stated that the 5.56mm is an insufficient stopper in M855 form to begin with?

                    Clearly, the Mk262 delivers the goods against unarmored targets.

                    The real question is how effective the M855A1 round will be. Time will tell.

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                    • #70
                      Honestly, a big part of the problem with the terminal effectiveness of M855 is not even the round itself, but rather the switch to the short 10.5"-14.5" barreled M4 carbines.

                      From the 20.5" bbl of an M16A2/A4, the M855 has dramatically superior performance than it does from the short barreled weapons.

                      I am of the opinion that the M16A2/A4 should be the general issue personal weapon for infantry forces in A-stan, not the short barreled M4. Also, the use of the USMC 200m IBZ is not wise in that theater, and the older 300m zero should be re-adopted by all NATO forces operating there.

                      5.56mm "inneffectiveness" in that theater is largely self inflicted.

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                      • #71
                        I think part of the problem is the 5.56 narrow window of effectiveness, evidenced by the issues when transitioning to a shorter barrel.
                        Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Bill View Post
                          Were you not the one that stated that the 5.56mm is an insufficient stopper in M855 form to begin with?

                          Clearly, the Mk262 delivers the goods against unarmored targets.

                          The real question is how effective the M855A1 round will be. Time will tell.

                          The 5.56 in general I am not impressed with unless your shooting paper targets or varmint hunting. Then you have a winner. The M855 in particular I don't know.
                          Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

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                          • #73
                            A Mk262 utterly devastates a huge quantity of tissue and is in fact significantly more devastating than M80 7.62mm ball or M118LR 7.62mm OTM. The Mk262 also reliably fragments at velocities as low as 2100fps in tests.

                            You could not be more wrong about the terminal effectiveness of good 5.56mm cartridges in soft tissue.

                            It is not a varmint round anyway. With proper ammo it is easily capable of routinely achieving one shot kills on deer sized game and big hogs. It is simply a matter of using the right ammo. For instance, with Barnes solid copper hollowpoints (and some other bullet designs), 5.56mm is easily capable of scoring a clean one shot kill on a 350-400lb black bear.

                            The problem with the fragmenting ammunition that the US military has used is that it is entirely reliant on impact velocity to achieve said fragmentation, and the shorter M855 round just requires too much impact velocity to reliably fragment when compared to the Mk262 round. 90gr OTM rounds have demonstrated reliable fragmentation (and massive tissue destruction) at velocities as low as 1800fps.

                            The switch to the short barreled M4s has really hurt the terminal performance of the M855 round. It's really that simple. Further, the M855 was never really intended to fragment, it was designed as a machine gun round designed to penetrate soviet body armor at extended ranges. For that task, it is quite capable.
                            Last edited by Bill; 11 Feb 11,, 16:33.

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                            • #74
                              I think we covered this ground before Bill. My experience with the 5.56 civilian hunting rounds(.223) for deer have been lacking.The only success I have had was under 50 yards or head shots. I have hit deer broadside at 200 yards and the .223 failed miserably, barely cracked a rib.
                              Prairie dogs to coyotes the 5.56/.223 is one hell of a round and that is where it comes unto its own. You don't have to believe me on the popularity of the 5.56/.223 for varmint hunting. You can google it yourself. I have shot cases of 5.56 at the dogs in Eastern Oregon. the .223/5.56 does not hit like a .22-250 downrange but is a lot cheaper to shoot and does the job very well.

                              Old timers used to hunt grizz with a black powder rifles and .30-.30's. They were successful but other rounds have been found better suited for the job. You can hunt bears with a .223/5.56 if you want to. I will be bringing something a bit bigger to the table.

                              Question: What if the locals in Afghanistan suddenly start wearing body armer. Will our troops stay with the MK 262 or will they get something else?
                              Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

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                              • #75
                                What were you using, 40gr hollowpoints or V-Max rounds on the deer?

                                M193 will easily kill a deer with one shot, and so will any suitable bullet on the market today. Using a bullet specifically designed for varminting, yes, obviously the round would perform poorly.

                                The BULLET you use is far, far, far more important than the CALIBER you use. And doubly so for handguns.

                                Mk262 will easily defeat level IIIA body armor.

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