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  • #31
    IIRC the Maxim machine gun was originally designed for black powder, and Maxim had to build in mechanisms and tolerances that would deal with the vast amount of BP fouling.

    Imagine a BP Maxim if left uncleaned for a day or two on a rainy battlefield... the gun would rust horribly.

    "Whatever happens, we have got
    The Maxim gun, and they have not."



    Sorry for drifting the thread, I do that far too often. Apologies.

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    • #32
      a lot of the issues with old-timey machining was that it wasn't very precise on a mass scale. hard to build high-tolerance that way.

      having said that, to some degree a lot of stuff is just know-how, ie if you gave machinists in the 1870s technical manuals and a working AK-47 they could probably pump out a few. the difficulty would be making it in masse, and making them well. that requires an industrial capacity and tools they just don't have.
      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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      • #33
        Astralis, do you think it would be technically feasible (even possible) to create a gas-powered automatic weapon like an AK-74 that uses BP? I suppose by increasing the bore to maybe 7.62mm and massively enlarging the gas port, you might get it to cycle, but unless the gas bleed is opened (like an M-4) and vents to the atmosphere, the crud build-up would jam the system tight. Like the short-stroke M1 carbine and similar.

        But recoil or blowback automatic BP weapons... no problem, I'm thinking. You might need to reduce the power of the recoil spring, but otherwise, I can't think of any reason it wouldn't go. I really need to try this! Now I'm curious.

        Does the Russian 5.45mm round still use the lead-cored bullet with the void behind the nose? If so, is there any reason our own 5.56 cartridge couldn't use some similar mechanism?

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        • #34
          It could, but it would be outlawed under the international laws of war since it is a "dum-dum" bullet.
          "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

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          • #35
            Our 5.56mm round possesses wounding power far in disproportion to it's size due to it's propensity to yaw to 90 degrees upon impact then violently fragment due to the immense shearing forces imposed on the projectile.

            SOCOM Mk262 Mod1 77gr OTM is an especially devastating round, and nearly matches the terminal ballistics of the much ballyhooed 6.8x43mm SPC cartridge. The Mk262 rd also has an extremely shallow wound neck, achieving fragmentation within the first 2" of penetration in most cases.

            The problem with the 62gr SS109/M855 cartridge is that so many varieties of it are made. Some of them, though NATO approved, have a wound neck as deep as 6 or more inches before fragmentation occurs. This can result in an ineffective ice pick type would tract, particularly against thin enemy personnel engaged in a frontal shot.

            The Mk262 overcomes those shortcomings, and is an extremely lethal round, and the one that i have loaded in my home defense AR. (I am actually using the even higher velocity nickel plated cased Doubletap 77gr Nosler OTM variation of the military round)

            Mk262 Mod1 actually creates a far more devastating wound than M80 7.62x51mm ball. If it has a weakness, it's that it's non bonded core design is not that great against auto glass in all the tests that i've seen.

            Another nice side effect of the Mk262 is that it is a match grade round, and is extremely accurate, though it won't stabilize in a 1:12 barrel, and may not stabilize in a 1:9 barrel in cold weather conditions.
            Last edited by Bill; 21 Jan 11,, 09:12.

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            • #36
              How's the M855A1 faring?
              All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
              -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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              • #37
                M855 was really ammo that was designed for the SAW, and for a mission that they no longer have to perform- penetrating soviet helmets and body armor at extended range. It's lower velocity works against it in creating the kind of dynamic wound profiles of the earlier M193. Also, based on all i've read, because so many different NATO nations produce M855/SS109, there is wide variation in things like jacket thickness and steel penetrator core location.
                This results in significant variation in the fragmentation qualities of M855/SS109 ammunition.

                M855A1 just replaces the lead core with a copper core. It does apparently exhibit better penetration against steel and other hard targets, but i don't see how it will be any better against personnel.

                Mk262Mod1 is the most effective fragmentation type round available for 5.56mm at this time, that i am aware of. The tests and reports i've seen are extremely impressive.
                Last edited by Bill; 22 Jan 11,, 07:59.

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                • #38
                  The only document I have read is from the US Army so objectivity might be compromised. From what I understand to be the gist, the jacket had been tuned, presumably to encourage consistent fragmentation. The bullet now penetrates thicker steel plate (go figure ) but also penetrate concrete better (good). Erratic ballistic patterns after punching through windshield seems to be fixed. The presentation is very enthusiastic but I am waiting for real hard info.
                  Last edited by Triple C; 22 Jan 11,, 08:47. Reason: *Link to PDF Presentation Now Attached to Post*
                  All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                  -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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                  • #39
                    Suppose it's a bad case of insomnia, but I hunted down the opinion of another infantry-type military professional in Tank-Net:

                    The exposed penetrator works not a little like a 'ballistic tip' as the shoulder pushes back against the edge of the jacket as it impacts. The location of the cannelure near the neck of the jacket weakens it and increases the likelihood of jacket failure. The design is not unlike one I have been suggesting for years, albeit a jacketed core vis all copper with a tungsten carbine penetrator swaged in. Concentricity of the penetrator and core is going to be very important to avoid wobble in flight.

                    Notice the length of the bullet. I can only imagine it has a better BC than M855.

                    The real magic in M855A1 is the same super-duper powder blends used in Mk318. They are secret and proprietary to the government.

                    Windows are one thing. Laminated automotive glass is a different chicken. M855 will sometimes break up when punching through laminate glass and lose most of its effectiveness. 400 rounds....that's just Allah looking out for his flock.

                    Simon
                    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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                    • #40
                      The solid copper core should result in a longer projectile, which should reduce the neck length of the wound channel, as it will upset quicker after impact while also being submitted to higher sheering forces, but with a solid copper core, once the jacket fragments, I don't see how the copper core will do anything but remain intact. In the M193, M855 and Mk262, once the jacket breaks apart the lead base of the bullet violently fragments, causing multiple wound tracts and large scale tissue detachment. With M855A1 you'll have the steel tip, copper core, and a few jacket fragments but you'll lose the effect of the lead core in the earlier rounds.

                      Also, because M855A1 is a non-bonded jacket design, i really don't think it will be as good as some other designs wrt penetrating laminated glass.

                      I'm not saying it's not better than M855, just that i doubt it'as as good for APERS use as Mk262 or M193. Maybe i'm wrong, time will tell. To me, honestly, the M855A1 is about pleasing the tree huggers more than anything else.

                      Is anyone making an M855A1 equivalent round for civvie use yet? Did it get a BATF armor piercing waiver?

                      The jarheads are also using a new round too, totally different than the M855A1, called the Mk318MOD. It appears to be a military adaptation of the Federal Bonded Bear Claw Trophy ammo. I have not see any testing to indicate how it performs in gelatin yet. This ammo is available for civilian purchase.
                      Last edited by Bill; 23 Jan 11,, 22:52.

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                      • #41
                        From what I understand, the USMC Mk 318 is a descendant of the Mk 262 OTM that SOCOM developed and used. I am just hoping the accuracy/terminal effect woes of M855 out of <16 in barrels would go away. PS.com's SF operator as well as TankNet veterans both opined that with M-4s, the real issue was still connecting the shots at extended ranges followed by occasional failure to stop; SF soldiers reported that they preferred M193 and OTM over 855.
                        Last edited by Triple C; 23 Jan 11,, 19:34.
                        All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                        -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Mk262 and Mk318 are completely unrelated rounds. They are different weights, and of vastly differing construction, and cause wounds via a different mechanism.

                          Mk262 is a yawing and fragmenting round, Mk318 is not. Mk318 should have significantly superior performance in barrier penetration, but will most likely fall significantly short of the massive tissue destruction of Mk262.

                          Totally different animals my friend.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Bill View Post
                            Mk262 and Mk318 are completely unrelated rounds. They are different weights, and of vastly differing construction, and cause wounds via a different mechanism.

                            Mk262 is a yawing and fragmenting round, Mk318 is not. Mk318 should have significantly superior performance in barrier penetration, but will most likely fall significantly short of the massive tissue destruction of Mk262.

                            Totally different animals my friend.
                            Gotcha! Very interesting.
                            All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                            -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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                            • #44
                              We have spent a lot of time effort and money developing the 5.56. I still wonder how other rounds would have ben improved if they had that kind of resources behind them.
                              Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

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                              • #45
                                All you have to do is look at modern hunting, Law Enforcement, and self defense loadings in the other calibers to answer that question.

                                There is an increasing push by US Military ballistic testing types to abandon the unratified Hague accords entirely, and to issue US Military forces modern Law Enforcement types of loads in all calibers in use today.

                                I am in agreement with those who say that the prohibition against small arms ammunition that causes "unnecessary suffering" is utterly stupid, and virtually meaningless.

                                The 9mm cartridge especially would benefit massively from use of modern LE/SD type ammunition. There are 9mm loads on the market now that can achieve 1500fps mv, 500fpe of energy, and can exceed .60 caliber expansion, while still penetrating the FBI mandated 12+" penetration in calibrated ballistics gelatin.

                                Even a switch to a bonded core flat nose +P round in 9mm would yield a huge increase in tissue destruction, bone crushing without deflection and laminated auto glass penetration, while still adhering to the Hague conventions. The current round nose FMJ load is, well, stupid.
                                Last edited by Bill; 24 Jan 11,, 21:11.

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