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Thread: Switzerland's "deportation initiative"

  1. #16
    Administrator Tarek Morgen's Avatar
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    Some background infos on the SVP and Switzerland in general.

    The SVP currently hold with 62 (of 200) most seats in the National Council (the lower chamber of the parliament) and is part of a four party government. It is also the strongest party in over a third of the nations cantons. The Party used to be positioned mostly in the center until Christoph Blocher
    started to rise to influence and power in the party and moved it further and further to the right. While using blatant rhetoric and foreigners, immigrations cooperation with EU and other matters caused the party to gain more public support, Blocher lost is seat in the Parliament in 2007 despite being part of the federal council (This has happened less then 5 times in the history of Switzerland.)

    Switzerland has with over 22% one of the largest percentage of foreigners in Europe, but this number is a little bit misleading. It is less caused by a larger number of Immigrants moving to Switzerland (though it is a popular target), but due very tight restrictions it is extremely hard for foreigners, even in third generation to obtain Swiss nationality. So while in most other countries large parts of the immigrants (and/or their descendants) would sooner or later acquire local citizenship in Switzerland this is much rarer, keeping the number up.

    The rate of crime among foreigners has been a hot topic since at least the mid 90ths (spearheaded of course by the SVP). According to statistic of the Swiss police, immigrants from African nations like Angola or Algeria are 6 times more likely to commit crimes then a Swiss national. But then again according to the same statistic Swiss are almost twice as likely to commit a crime then Germans living in Switzerland. ..

  2. #17
    Dirty Kiwi Senior Contributor
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    Okay, so if I understand this correctly Switzerland would be much like any other non EU country in terms of trade with the EU and would loose membership of the EFTA , no imposition would be placed on movement of goods across it's border (i.e. blockade) and it would be free to reinstitute it's old banking regimes and any laws it wishes as a sovereign nation.
    I don't see how this would bring about the collapse of the Swiss economy overnight.
    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility

    Gottfried Leibniz

  3. #18
    Administrator Tarek Morgen's Avatar
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    I don't see how this would bring about the collapse of the Swiss economy overnight.
    right now swiss trade (and people) move freely across the border. After removing the current treaties you have once again personal controles, checks, customs. While a nation can live with those things (and still be within the direct sphere of the EU), suddenly moving back to this from having a complete free trade will cause havoc. Trade would not be impossible, but it will get suddenly much slower and harder.

    Also it would most likely not simply move back to a "pre-treaty" status. The EU would most likely want to punish Switzerland further for breaking the existing treaties and impose economic sanctions or impose high trade costums.

  4. #19
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    Ya, maybe because I am American I don't see deporting criminals as a bad thing. If the person doesn't want to get tortured or executed- don't do things to get deported.

  5. #20
    Administrator Tarek Morgen's Avatar
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    The violation of internation law, treaties with the EU and foremost their own constitution is nothing that causes any concerns for you?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    due very tight restrictions it is extremely hard for foreigners, even in third generation to obtain Swiss nationality.
    It's not really all that hard in theory. It's just complicated - because it's not the Swiss Federation that naturalizes people, but the individual municipalities. And each municipality has different requirements, aside from the general rule that you have to have lived in Switzerland for at least 12 years.
    Until 2006, municipalities were even allowed to decide that based on income and wealth of the person, and until 2003 municipalities could have a vote among their citizens on whether someone should be naturalized, with the usual racism involved in such things (the SVP has been trying to reinstate this rule).

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    The violation of internation law, treaties with the EU and foremost their own constitution is nothing that causes any concerns for you?
    Not really, a criminalis a criminal, they are not entitled to rights they were not willing to extend to others via thier own actions. As for treaties, the Swiss were stupid for letting a forgien government have that much say with internal law and orderissues

  8. #23
    Administrator Tarek Morgen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Not really, a criminalis a criminal, they are not entitled to rights they were not willing to extend to others via thier own actions.
    There is a reason why a few centuries ago the term "certain unalienable Rights" was used and not "certain unalienable Rights, except for jerks". The Swiss have in their constitution the right for equality before the law (among many other things) and this rights expands to foreigners, criminal and law abiding. Once you start taking away the rights granted in the constitution from people who might even deserve it, you open the gates to do the same to people who would not deserve it.

    Would you really support a law that directly violates the constitution of your country (even if you agree with its intend)?

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    There is a reason why a few centuries ago the term "certain unalienable Rights" was used and not "certain unalienable Rights, except for jerks". The Swiss have in their constitution the right for equality before the law (among many other things) and this rights expands to foreigners, criminal and law abiding. Once you start taking away the rights granted in the constitution from people who might even deserve it, you open the gates to do the same to people who would not deserve it.

    Would you really support a law that directly violates the constitution of your country (even if you agree with its intend)?
    Constitutions are between citizens of a country not non-citizens. A nation has the right to deport those who come to it, and then break the law. Once they are found guilty, send em home.

  10. #25
    Administrator Tarek Morgen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Constitutions are between citizens of a country not non-citizens. A nation has the right to deport those who come to it, and then break the law. Once they are found guilty, send em home.
    The US Consitution applies to all people within the US, at least according to the US Supreme court. Though since we are talking about Switzerland we have to look at their constitution and while it makes a difference between Citizens and Non-citizens it does not work the way you mentioned.

    The second part of the Swiss Constitution deals with basic, civil, and social rights and is devided in two chapters. The second one deals with Citizen rights, those do indeed only apply to people of Swiss nationanilty, but the first part is about basic rights, and those do apply to explicitly everyone in Switzerland, even non citizen. The right for equality before the law is among them (actually it is the first one mentioned right after the declaration of protection of the human dignity).

    So this law is against the Swiss Constitution and the part it violates do apply to foreigners living in Switzerland.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    The US Consitution applies to all people within the US, at least according to the US Supreme court. Though since we are talking about Switzerland we have to look at their constitution and while it makes a difference between Citizens and Non-citizens it does not work the way you mentioned.

    The second part of the Swiss Constitution deals with basic, civil, and social rights and is devided in two chapters. The second one deals with Citizen rights, those do indeed only apply to people of Swiss nationanilty, but the first part is about basic rights, and those do apply to explicitly everyone in Switzerland, even non citizen. The right for equality before the law is among them (actually it is the first one mentioned right after the declaration of protection of the human dignity).

    So this law is against the Swiss Constitution and the part it violates do apply to foreigners living in Switzerland.
    Yup equality before the law does not mean you can't deport crimminals back to thier home country. I just donlt get what the big deal is, if they broke the law and are convicted- send them home.

  12. #27
    Administrator Tarek Morgen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Yup equality before the law does not mean you can't deport crimminals back to thier home country. I just donlt get what the big deal is, if they broke the law and are convicted- send them home.
    The law allows foreigners to be deported into countries where they might face torture. This is against internation law.

    This is binding for the Swiss, not simply because it is international law, but because the Swiss Constitution explict states that Swiss law may not violate these.

    Due equalty before the law (even for foreign criminals) this section of the Swiss constituion must not be ignored.

    If the law would be passed in a version that would prohibt to deport people to countries where they might face torture it would no longer violate the Swiss Constitution (as far as I understand this. There might be other issues regarding the constitution I am not aware of).

    Yet even then it would violate their treaties with the EU, with most likely the consequences mentioned here earlier.

  13. #28
    An t-aimiral chlthil Senior Contributor crooks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    The banner for this current initiative speaks for itself. They've been using this for a couple years.
    Attachment 22817
    Yup, I remember that from a few years ago. Great opposition poster for it (headline for those who failed French is 'we are not sheep', and UDC is the French abreviation of SVP):



    Some of their other hits:









    It's disturbing, and from any interviews with party members, they're not even trying to hide their racism, in truth. It's all about a caricature of traditional Swiss values, rather than the inclusion, tolerance, pluralism, independence and freedom that Switzerland has been much admired for elsewhere.
    Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
    - John Stuart Mill.

  14. #29
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    Their most ridiculous proposal so far was the one where they were trying to get the Bundesrat to make it easier for other countries to join the Swiss Federation. With a map and an explanation lining out the German state of Baden-Wrttemberg, the Austrian state of Vorarlberg, similar-sized territories in France (including all of Alsace) and parts of Italy, enlarging Switzerland to nearly four times its current territory and population. The Bundesrat rejected it on the basis that it would constitute a "hostile move" against the four neighboring countries.

    That was only half a year ago.

  15. #30
    An t-aimiral chlthil Senior Contributor crooks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    Their most ridiculous proposal so far was the one where they were trying to get the Bundesrat to make it easier for other countries to join the Swiss Federation. With a map and an explanation lining out the German state of Baden-Wrttemberg, the Austrian state of Vorarlberg, similar-sized territories in France (including all of Alsace) and parts of Italy, enlarging Switzerland to nearly four times its current territory and population. The Bundesrat rejected it on the basis that it would constitute a "hostile move" against the four neighboring countries.

    That was only half a year ago.
    I take it the good people of Baden-Wurttemberg weren't amused? I've heard of Swiss (and indeed some locals within the area) who claim that Vorarlberg could be seen as part of 'Greater Switzerland', but never anywhere in Germany - is it a dialect thing? I can't see French or Italian Swiss being keen on 10 million more German speakers!
    Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
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