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Mobile artillery: how fast from move to shoot?

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  • Mobile artillery: how fast from move to shoot?

    Hia folks


    I'm currently engaged in a discussion on artillery tactics. I know that, in a scenario in which both sides have arty, the proper tactic is to shoot, move to new location to avoid counter batery fire, then shoot again. but I have no idea how fast a modern SPG can do this. Anyone knows how long it would take an M109/AS90/PzH 2000/2S19 to be able to shoot after moving? I believe they have to deploy stabilizing equipment to conpensate for the recoil?

    And any idea on their WWII counterparts?

  • #2
    Modern Self Propelled Systems such as you have listed have the ability to fire within 30 to 45 seconds of the vehicle stopping.
    "Admit nothing, deny everything, make counter-accusations".- Motto of the Gun Crew who have just done something incredibly stupid!!!!

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    • #3
      I'm pretty sure it takes a lot longer for similar WWII sytems to set up, mostly due to the fact that it took a lot longer for the older artillery systems to come up with a firing solution; nowadays we've got GPS and satellite tracking and realtime imagery that can come up with a firing solution a lot faster, like within seconds, instead of minutes. I'm sure there are other people on this forum who can give you much more detailed answers than I can, but I believe modern SP arty can even calculate the firing solution BEFORE they stop and put the shovels down.
      "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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      • #4
        That fast?! I thought it would take at least a couple of mns...

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        • #5
          Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
          That fast?! I thought it would take at least a couple of mns...
          As Stitch points out the modern self propelled howitzers utilise GPS and various types of Ring Laser Gyros to provide accurate weapon location and directional control of the ordnance. Literally as soon as the vehicle stops it is technically fire capable. IF the system does its own on board ballistic computation then all it needs is a target grid location and target type. FIre mission can be processd literally instantaneously. Even if it doesnt do it computation on board it will be in digital comms with some type of controlling unit. WHich on reciept of the howitzers location transmitted digitally they will process the mission and sent back digital. This literaly only takes seconds. when using the US AFATDS fire control system its a case of hitting "Analyse Target" verify safe and then you "Send it". Then its on the crew, how quickly can they prep the ammo, load it and fire.

          Arty
          "Admit nothing, deny everything, make counter-accusations".- Motto of the Gun Crew who have just done something incredibly stupid!!!!

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          • #6
            The Archer system seemed pretty well to do as a mobile Howitzer. Shoot and scoot. My bad I see the thread is discussing WWII sytems.
            Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
              The Archer system seemed pretty well to do as a mobile Howitzer. Shoot and scoot. My bad I see the thread is discussing WWII sytems.
              I wanted to know both, really :)

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              • #8
                If my memory serves correctly...

                A battery equipped with guns which cannot self-locate is capable of occupying a position and being ready to fire in less than five minutes. The catch here is that the position is prepared ahead of time by the advance party. Without this, the guns can still fire, but they won’t be accurate – a registration mission or adjusting fire becomes necessary.

                A fire mission calculated without the benefit of computerized assistance (AFATDS, BCS, etc) takes about one to two minutes, from receipt of mission to rounds fired.
                I don’t know if these times are historically correct for WWII –they are merely my own experience.

                Hope that helps

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                • #9
                  I was a 13F and when we were training it always seemed like our 13B's couldn't get rounds down range in anything under 10 mins... even if there was no moving involved whatsoever. It was always "Call... wait... wait... wait... wait... wait... shot and splash"

                  And even during exercises like JRTC our guns could never get coordinated quickly enough to be effective. It was embarrassing when we couldn't make any promises to our infantry companies that didn't involve their organic mortars, even when our fire missions were given priority.

                  Thank God 13B's don't have anything to do for air strikes or we'd all be speaking Iraqi... which is ludicrous, of course, but effectively ironic and telling.

                  Air support is the king of battle these days.

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                  • #10
                    How fast can you fire and then wind down and move like 1 km away and then fire?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by crosservice View Post
                      I was a 13F and when we were training it always seemed like our 13B's couldn't get rounds down range in anything under 10 mins... even if there was no moving involved whatsoever. It was always "Call... wait... wait... wait... wait... wait... shot and splash"

                      And even during exercises like JRTC our guns could never get coordinated quickly enough to be effective. It was embarrassing when we couldn't make any promises to our infantry companies that didn't involve their organic mortars, even when our fire missions were given priority.

                      Thank God 13B's don't have anything to do for air strikes or we'd all be speaking Iraqi... which is ludicrous, of course, but effectively ironic and telling.

                      Air support is the king of battle these days.
                      How long ago and what unit?

                      What was the level of training at the battery FDC?

                      What was the level of training of the gun crews?

                      Have you bounced thsi against actual fire mission times within the AOR?
                      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                      Mark Twain

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                      • #12
                        I was a 13F and when we were training it always seemed like our 13B's couldn't get rounds down range in anything under 10 mins... even if there was no moving involved whatsoever. It was always "Call... wait... wait... wait... wait... wait... shot and splash"
                        Crosservice, two things probably account for this:

                        1. The “time-of-flight” of a firemarker at JRTC or NTC is significantly longer than an actual projectile – he may not start driving towards the target until after the (notional) rounds are fired.

                        2. In the pre-AFATDS days, higher headquarters could add a significant amount of delay to firemission times. Picture this: the platoon observer calls the mission to his company FSO, who checks his map to make sure the target he’s hitting is the enemy and not friendly. He then calls the mission up to the maneuver battalion FSO, who also checks his map, verifies who has priority of fire, etc. The battalion FSO then calls it into the Brigade FSE, and once again, map check, priority of fire decision, etc. Brigade then sends the mission down to the artillery battalion FDC, and guess what? Yup, map check, priority of fire decision, and also a decision on who will fire. The Battalion FDC sends the mission to a firing battery FDC, and now your two minutes starts.

                        Training can speed this process up – for example, higher headquarters can pass the mission along and THEN verify if it’s safe, but this takes a LOT of training. Digital devices like AFATDS also speed this up, but many folks in the firemission chain still prefer to verify the target themselves. Finally, you can cut out the higher headquarters and go straight from the observer to the battery FDC – but this means dedicating a battery to a particular observer.

                        In both cases, it’s not the 13B’s who are slow – unfortunately they are the ones who always get blamed.

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                        • #13
                          Yeah, I realized the delay on arty at places like JRTC might be due (in part) to the notional-ness of the whole thing. My favorite memory of that, though, is having an OP on a choke point, having brigade level priority, having pre-determined, pre-relayed targets that would supposedly just require like 3 transmissions to initiate fire... taking an hour to have an OC pop his little whistling devices. Long after everyone had assumed we just didn't get our fires.

                          Anyway, I understand there's a lot more to it than call a 13B, he throws numbers in a computer, loads a round and everyone meets up for beer and laughs after splash. And granted when this was happening we were still pretty new into Afghanistan and Iraq so training was pretty lame and nobody had much real experience... meh... my point was less about all of that, and less about 13B's than it was about "no matter how fast or well someone is set up it still takes ages for the bang."

                          This was Fort Drum 1999-2003.

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                          • #14
                            I don't know about exercises at JRTC but here's commentary from CSI's study of the Battle Of Wanat-

                            "The TF Rock TOC recorded the initial contact report from Wanat at 0423, the time the first field artillery fire mission was executed. This was an immediate suppression mission aimed at a target approximately 550 yards to the northwest of the COP, danger close (less than 650 yards from friendly positions) for 155-mm field artillery, and about as close to friendly positions as high angle artillery could be safely fired in the mountainous terrain. TF Rock commander Ostlund briefly delayed the execution of the fires while he confirmed with Myer that all the Chosen Company defenders were within the perimeter, as he knew that a patrol was scheduled to depart the COP at around the same time. Within six minutes of the start of the action, the first rounds impacted. Myer initially focused the artillery on the southern and western sides of the COP."

                            Wanat: Combat Action In Afghanistan, 2008-The Staff Of the U.S. Army Combat Studies Institute 2010

                            Rounds impacting would have to account for TOF for high angle fires. TOF (time of flight) would be a function of range to target and quadrant elevation. This accounted for some delay, although measured in seconds-not minutes. Secondly, clearing targets remains important. During this battle "danger close" was a very real issue. I can't comment on the defensive fire-plan's integration of field artillery fires to include pre-planned targets nor methods of engagement.
                            "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                            "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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