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  • Originally posted by GGTharos View Post
    It is clearly marked in the performance charts of the F-15A/B/C/D -1.
    In the absense of the performance charts I'll take your word for it, though I have to admit that I am a little surprised. Why would would only the F-15 be limited in this case when Sparrows/AMRAAMs are carried semi-conformally and sidewinders are little, low drag loads, while the Mig-25 isn't with its stinking big missiles?
    "There is no such thing as society" - Margaret Thatcher

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    • I think that an Oscar firing a salvo of P-700's would be about the only thing that would have a fighting chance of scoring a hit on a USN carrier, as it is the only platform with enough weapons that would reliably get to within launch range.

      However, I still think the carrier would have good odds. When we say that the Oscar is going to launch all of its missiles, are we talking about firing all of them at once or consecutively with a few seconds in between? I would have thought that if it fired all 24 at once that the combined backblast wouldn't do the submarine or crew any good, so I figure the latter is the case. Assuming that I am correct you are probably looking at a minute between the first and last missile being launched, which gives AEGIS time to switch its fire control radars to new targets as the original ones are engaged. When the SM-6 comes on line this won't even be an issue as it has an active radar onboard for the terminal homing stage.
      "There is no such thing as society" - Margaret Thatcher

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      • Originally posted by Aussiegunner View Post
        In the absense of the performance charts I'll take your word for it, though I have to admit that I am a little surprised. Why would would only the F-15 be limited in this case when Sparrows/AMRAAMs are carried semi-conformally and sidewinders are little, low drag loads, while the Mig-25 isn't with its stinking big missiles?
        The MiG is affected as well.

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        • Originally posted by Jimmy View Post
          The MiG is affected as well.
          Thanks. I note the article that we were talking about states that the Mig-25 can carry full weapons to mach 2.8. I strongly suspect that is balony, as is the rest of the article.
          "There is no such thing as society" - Margaret Thatcher

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          • Yep - all the max speeds you see on those planes, cut'em down by 1/4 or so when they are fully armed. Won't give a precise answer, but close enough. The Raptor would be the exception here.

            You can find some -1's for USAF aircraft or in some cases NATOPS publications for USN aircraft with performance charts on the net. Sometimes you can even find them for free - either way they are not usually classified as they just give you an overview of the flight capabilities rather than weapon employment specifics, tactics etc - assuming you're ever curious about it :)

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            • Originally posted by GGTharos View Post
              Yep - all the max speeds you see on those planes, cut'em down by 1/4 or so when they are fully armed. Won't give a precise answer, but close enough. The Raptor would be the exception here.

              You can find some -1's for USAF aircraft or in some cases NATOPS publications for USN aircraft with performance charts on the net. Sometimes you can even find them for free - either way they are not usually classified as they just give you an overview of the flight capabilities rather than weapon employment specifics, tactics etc - assuming you're ever curious about it :)
              Thanks, I might do that.
              "There is no such thing as society" - Margaret Thatcher

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              • Originally posted by Aussiegunner View Post
                I think that an Oscar firing a salvo of P-700's would be about the only thing that would have a fighting chance of scoring a hit on a USN carrier, as it is the only platform with enough weapons that would reliably get to within launch range.
                Agreed

                Originally posted by Aussiegunner View Post
                However, I still think the carrier would have good odds. When we say that the Oscar is going to launch all of its missiles, are we talking about firing all of them at once or consecutively with a few seconds in between? I would have thought that if it fired all 24 at once that the combined backblast wouldn't do the submarine or crew any good, so I figure the latter is the case. Assuming that I am correct you are probably looking at a minute between the first and last missile being launched, which gives AEGIS time to switch its fire control radars to new targets as the original ones are engaged. When the SM-6 comes on line this won't even be an issue as it has an active radar onboard for the terminal homing stage.
                Only one P-700 in a salvo goes subsonic on high profile trajectory. If it hit, another one lifts up from low profile. The rest go 20 feet above the surface in silence at mach 2+
                Again, I'm happy we'll never know how efficient AEGIS is
                We're so bad, we're even bad at it

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                • Originally posted by Andrey Egorov View Post

                  Only one P-700 in a salvo goes subsonic on high profile trajectory. If it hit, another one lifts up from low profile. The rest go 20 feet above the surface in silence at mach 2+. Again, I'm happy we'll never know how efficient AEGIS is
                  I doubt that it is going to do mach 2+ at 20 feet, the missile "only" does mach 2.5 as its top speed and that would be at altitude. I would believe mach 1.5 though, which is still formidible.
                  "There is no such thing as society" - Margaret Thatcher

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                  • Originally posted by Aussiegunner View Post
                    I doubt that it is going to do mach 2+ at 20 feet, the missile "only" does mach 2.5 as its top speed and that would be at altitude. I would believe mach 1.5 though, which is still formidible.
                    Well, at least it supposed to fly last 20 nm at maximum speed with internal radar guidance
                    We're so bad, we're even bad at it

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                    • Hmmm... my own F-15 dash one shows missile carriage & employment limitations to be "BAL", Basic Aircraft Limits. There are definitely mach limits on external fuel tanks of 1.5 mach, but an otherwise clean F-15 (missiles only) can fly and fire them throughout the aircraft envelope.

                      I'm looking in section 5, "Operating limitations", "External stores limitations without CFT."

                      What anything hung on the airplane definitely does do is contribute to an overall Drag Index that hinders performance. You calculate the DI of a particular configuration, and that can tell you how performance like range, ceiling, and acceleration are affected. We'd normally fly with a single centerline tank, one practice AIM-9, and that is designed to simulate the DI of a 4 X 4 loadout.

                      I'm confident most fighters with external stores have similar methods. Regardless, anything above mach 1.4 is really not a normal combat speed. You become a high-speed dart that cannot turn well, and while this may be fine against other jets, the major SAM systems find the high-speed target to be a pretty simple solution below 50,000 feet. The sweet regime for combat ops is usually between mach 0.8 and mach 1.4.

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                      • Originally posted by Chogy View Post
                        Hmmm... my own F-15 dash one shows missile carriage & employment limitations to be "BAL", Basic Aircraft Limits. There are definitely mach limits on external fuel tanks of 1.5 mach, but an otherwise clean F-15 (missiles only) can fly and fire them throughout the aircraft envelope.

                        I'm looking in section 5, "Operating limitations", "External stores limitations without CFT."
                        Hi Chogy, that section is meant to describe mostly maneuver limitations including how many g's you can pull and limitations to stick-throw.
                        You have to look at the performance (max speed) charts for an F-15 in combat configuration and 97% engine trim.

                        Incidentally, just having looked myself, I may have been wrong: Looks like the 1.8 mach limitation might be on the centerline tank, and you can hit M2.2 or so without it. Then again, once you go supersonic with the tank you're not going to jett it (it'll come back up and hit the plane).

                        What anything hung on the airplane definitely does do is contribute to an overall Drag Index that hinders performance. You calculate the DI of a particular configuration, and that can tell you how performance like range, ceiling, and acceleration are affected. We'd normally fly with a single centerline tank, one practice AIM-9, and that is designed to simulate the DI of a 4 X 4 loadout.

                        I'm confident most fighters with external stores have similar methods. Regardless, anything above mach 1.4 is really not a normal combat speed. You become a high-speed dart that cannot turn well, and while this may be fine against other jets, the major SAM systems find the high-speed target to be a pretty simple solution below 50,000 feet. The sweet regime for combat ops is usually between mach 0.8 and mach 1.4.
                        You'll want to look at the Level Flight Envelope charts, if you have them. M1.4-1.5 is what F-15's would race up to to employ missiles at the greatest ranges they can. Slower speeds are more applicable in terms of fuel economy and dogfighting. And again if you look at the available g envelope charts, you'll find the F-15 loves to fight at around M0.9-0.95 :) 0.8 is at the bottom of corner speed.

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                        • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
                          Some people here seem to think only of "sinking the carrier". But you don't have to sink it, do you? Simply remove it from combat. A hit on the flight deck, or the island, or an elevator, in short, any hit tthat prevents the carrier from operating planes, and that's it. No more carrier. Also, how much speed does the carrier need to launch fighters with a usefull weapons load? 30knots? Loose the rudder or a propeller...
                          In an emergency, she'll be patched up in weeks and be back in action again.
                          "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                          • Originally posted by Andrey Egorov View Post
                            I meant 24 Oscar's Shipwrecks. I can hardly believe anything hostile can get inside carrier escort group. Only a 24-missile salvo from 200 nm can succeed, imo
                            How does this Oscar locate and identify a carrier 200nm away?
                            "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                            • Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                              How does this Oscar locate and identify a carrier 200nm away?
                              That is a very good question. Do they merely point it in the general direction and expect it to find it (the task force)?

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                              • Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                                In an emergency, she'll be patched up in weeks and be back in action again.
                                Perhaps, but you're thinking of a long war. How long did either gulf wars lasted, once the shooting started? That carrier would be out of the war...

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