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  • Roundabout 30 years after World War 2 (taken in 1978, i think). German Fletcher "Z5", ex DD572 "Dyson", with some obvious modifications.

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    • Originally posted by kato View Post
      Roundabout 30 years after World War 2 (taken in 1978, i think). German Fletcher "Z5", ex DD572 "Dyson", with some obvious modifications.

      [ATTACH]22824[/ATTACH]
      The German D-179 still looks assertive w/o her tubes. Good photo capturing her main & secondary batteries firing.

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      • Next tour stop - 20 MM Oerlikon - Starboard Midship

        Continuing to the tour of the USS Kidd along the starboard gunwale and arrive @ a 20 MM Oerlikon gun mount.

        "The Oerlikon gun was fielded in United States Navy ships starting in 1942, replacing the M2 Browning machine gun, which lacked range and firepower. It became famous in the naval anti-aircraft role, providing an effective defense at short ranges (in practice up to 1.5 km) at which heavier guns had difficulty tracking a target. The gun was eventually abandoned as a major anti-air weapon due to its lack of stopping power against heavy aircraft and against Japanese kamikaze attacks during the Pacific War." wikipedia

        An Ensign on a light cruiser CL-57 related that the 20 MM Oerlikon's day had past by the time he arrived in the Pacific in 1944.
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        • It is interesting that the psychological state of mind of seaman was important enough to keep the 20 MM gun manned and ready though pass the point that the 20MM's were no longer effective as a defensive tool.

          "The career of the 20mm was quite short. It had extraordinary successes in 1942, 1943 and up to mid-1944, but with the advent of the kamikaze, the 20mm was not adequate anymore. It was, however, retained because of the psychological effect that the ability to fire at the attacker had for the seamen, and twin and quadruple mounts had been tested and installed aboard several ships.

          These guns were not big enough to be very effective against the kamikaze. It was a common expression that when the twenties opened fire, the plane was in so close it was time to hit the deck."

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          • I think I read that the twin 20mm mounts (introduced ~1945) were not much more effective than the singles. They went to twin 3" to use VT fused ammo on larger vessels right after the war (with missiles starting to replace these soon after).
            sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
            If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

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            • "These guns were not big enough to be very effective against the kamikaze. It was a common expression that when the twenties opened fire, the plane was in so close it was time to hit the deck."

              *Very true though, they were light AA to replace the 0.50 MG.

              Widely used by the Allied nations, the Swiss-designed 20mm Oerlikon AA MG was probably produced in higher numbers than any other AA weapon of WWII. The USA alone manufactured a total of 124,735 guns. The first USA built gun was test-fired on 8 June 1941 and 379 had been delivered by 7 December 1941. These guns were air-cooled and used a gas blow-back recoil system.
              This weapon proved very popular with its ease of maintenance and good rate of fire. In the USN, this weapon replaced the ineffective 0.50" (1.27 cm) MG on a one-for-one basis and was the primary anti-aircraft gun until the Bofors 4 cm became available in large numbers during 1943.

              In 1944-45, the US found that the 20mm shells were too light to stop the Japanese Kamikaze planes and the higher aircraft speeds made manually controlled guns obsolete. As a result, these weapons were replaced by 40mm Bofors where ever possible and removed from most US ships shortly after the war.

              http://www.usstexasbb35.com/20mm_naval_gun.htm
              Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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              • .With a Kamikaze striking within feet of a 20mm says quite abit about its lack of stopping power. When Rusty gets back from LA, I'll have to ask him about his earlier writing of 20 mm's welded to the deck. The illustration shows a stitch weld holding the base to the deck

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                • Easy on weld, easy off cut and blow away with an air arc if necessary.
                  Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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                  • Originally posted by blidgepump View Post
                    .With a Kamikaze striking within feet of a 20mm says quite abit about its lack of stopping power. When Rusty gets back from LA, I'll have to ask him about his earlier writing of 20 mm's welded to the deck. The illustration shows a stitch weld holding the base to the deck
                    Well, I'm back. Dead tired driving from Benicia back to north Long Beach. Got our inspections done in one day instead of three. We rushed the job so we could attend a meeting Thursday morning in San Pedro.

                    As for the 20 mm effectiveness, the Captain of an Aircraft Carrier (forgot which one) came up with the idea of mounting every full auto weapon they could buy, beg or borrow along the Gallery decks. That included even light machine guns as well as .50 calibers and the 20 mm. Then the firing order was NOT to try to aim for the plane. Instead all guns were to be fired all at once in the general direction of the plane but all at the same angle of (I think) about 30 degrees. This then made an arcing curtain of bullets that the plane had to fly through as they were coming down and get through again as they were shooting up.

                    This policy was applied to the USS South Dakota (BB-57) and John McCall was ordered to install as many 20's as possible wherever there was room on the deck. Even HE lost count as to how many he installed.

                    But it must have worked as well noted historically (and the book "Old Nameless") that in one battle she took out 26 Japanese airplanes.

                    However, by the time of the jet age, those 20's were absolutely useless. I think it was around 1957 when I was an Apprentice Shipfitter working on the inactivation of the USS Curtiss (AV-7). The crew was still aboard and the gunner's mates were removing the barrels of the 40 mm guns to be stowed down below. The 20's were to be taken off all together. At that time some British warships came into LBNSY and they fired their saluting guns and we were answering with ours (out on the Mole). One of the GM's joked, "Hey, run down and bring a barrel up. We might be in a war"). Then some jet aircraft made some fly-by's of the ships. One of the GM's jumped into the harness of a 20 mm and tried to lead the planes.

                    He found it impossible. Manually he could not swing the gun fast enough to get a lead and there were about three fly-by's for him to practice on. As I recall, he said, "Sh*t. They're are just too damned fast. These guns are totally useless against jets."
                    Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

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                    • Originally posted by RustyBattleship View Post
                      Well, I'm back. Dead tired driving from Benicia back to north Long Beach. Got our inspections done in one day instead of three. We rushed the job so we could attend a meeting Thursday morning in San Pedro.

                      As for the 20 mm effectiveness, the Captain of an Aircraft Carrier (forgot which one) came up with the idea of mounting every full auto weapon they could buy, beg or borrow along the Gallery decks. That included even light machine guns as well as .50 calibers and the 20 mm. Then the firing order was NOT to try to aim for the plane. Instead all guns were to be fired all at once in the general direction of the plane but all at the same angle of (I think) about 30 degrees. This then made an arcing curtain of bullets that the plane had to fly through as they were coming down and get through again as they were shooting up.

                      This policy was applied to the USS South Dakota (BB-57) and John McCall was ordered to install as many 20's as possible wherever there was room on the deck. Even HE lost count as to how many he installed.

                      But it must have worked as well noted historically (and the book "Old Nameless") that in one battle she took out 26 Japanese airplanes.

                      However, by the time of the jet age, those 20's were absolutely useless. I think it was around 1957 when I was an Apprentice Shipfitter working on the inactivation of the USS Curtiss (AV-7). The crew was still aboard and the gunner's mates were removing the barrels of the 40 mm guns to be stowed down below. The 20's were to be taken off all together. At that time some British warships came into LBNSY and they fired their saluting guns and we were answering with ours (out on the Mole). One of the GM's joked, "Hey, run down and bring a barrel up. We might be in a war"). Then some jet aircraft made some fly-by's of the ships. One of the GM's jumped into the harness of a 20 mm and tried to lead the planes.

                      He found it impossible. Manually he could not swing the gun fast enough to get a lead and there were about three fly-by's for him to practice on. As I recall, he said, "Sh*t. They're are just too damned fast. These guns are totally useless against jets."
                      Hi Rusty, Welcome back. Was that 20mm a single or a twin? (the one the GM tried to lead the jets with).

                      I was wondering if the twin being heavier would have made it slower to swing, since they said in some of the books I've read the twin wasn't much more effective than the single (against WWII piston aircraft) if that might have been part of the reason? (I beleive they were all useless against jets and kamakazi's).
                      Last edited by USSWisconsin; 04 Nov 10,, 05:25.
                      sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
                      If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

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                      • Kentucky Windage with a 20mm Gunsight

                        Mr. L hope all went well during your inspection of BB-61.

                        The 20mm's original gunsight is offered in the attached illustration.

                        On a gray hazy sea aboard a rocking deck I would support the claim ... "this is not a easy gun to aim". The "Lead Computing Stablizied Mk 14 Gunsight" must of been like placing a high powered scope on a slingshot.

                        Maybe some weapons experts using a little Kentucky windage could place some hits on a moving target :yield:
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                        • Originally posted by USSWisconsin View Post
                          Hi Rusty, Welcome back. Was that 20mm a single or a twin? (the one the GM tried to lead the jets with).

                          I was wondering if the twin being heavier would have made it slower to swing, since they said in some of the books I've read the twin wasn't much more effective than the single (against WWII piston aircraft) if that might have been part of the reason? (I beleive they were all useless against jets and kamakazi's).
                          It was only a single barreled gun. And he still couldn't swing it fast enough to get a lead.

                          By the way, because I was so tired last night (after driving all the way from Benicia to Long Beach) I spelled John's name wrong. It was McFaul and he was the shipfitter who instaled the 20's on the S.D.
                          Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

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                          • Bottom line on AA impact (Pacific WW II )

                            "Although the burden of ship defense against enemy air attacks fell largely upon our own carrier and land-based aircraft, approximately 7,600-7,800 enemy planes came within shipboard AA. range during the 45 months of the war.

                            Of these, an estimated 2,773, or 36 percent, were shot down by naval and merchant ships. In addition to these, the enemy expended 314 planes and pilots in suicide crashes on ships." Source Antiaircraft Action Summary - WWII


                            But let's do some math.... how many rounds to bring down one airplane :gunut:

                            Totals for War

                            ....................Rounds.........Kills.......... ..............Rounds Per Bird
                            5" Com..........223,770 ...... 342.0 .......(15%).....654
                            5" VT............117,915 ....... 346.5 .......(15%).....340
                            3"/50..............29,614........ 87.5 ........ (4%).....338
                            40 mm.........1,271,844.......742.5.........(33%)...1 ,713
                            1".1................. 85,996.........44.5.......... (2%)...1,932
                            20 mm. ...... 3,264,956........617.5.........(28%)...5,287...... ... :whome: Lots of rounds vs. 40 mm
                            .50-cal........... 729,836..........65.5.......... (3%)..11,143
                            .30-cal............112,506........... 4.0................... 28,127

                            Now the next math problem is how many 20 mm vs. 40 mm weapons were deployed?
                            Last edited by blidgepump; 04 Nov 10,, 21:16.

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                            • *IMO, In order to even give an idea, you want to see when they were in yard hands between late 1943 and early 1945. Many of the BB's were outfitted with several different amounts of 20mm ,1.1"/75, later replaced by 40mm Bofors. This is Mississippi in her last appearance. She carried a total of 12 40mm quad mounts and numerous 20mm. probably more then many her age.

                              http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/014108.jpg

                              Some of the Iowas carried 20 sets of the quad 40mm and still 49 20mms.

                              You would have to look at the individual classes of ships BB,CL,CA,DD,Amphibs etc. in their final appearance to know any numbers for sure and what classes had them aboard to know for sure.
                              Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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                              • Wow, what a busy place the Mississippi was when this picture was taken.
                                Is the Ship @ GQ?
                                Appears every sailor and officer is up on the deck at a battlestation.

                                Her armor belt on the port side can be clearly identified, too.

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