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    I reposted these as I have an image of a ship in dd several years ago however it has similar shafting and is a graphic illustration of the shafting the phosphor bronze shaft liner/journal and the staves that line the bearing which fit in the stern tube and strut housing.
    Last edited by Boilermaker9; 17 Jul 18,, 17:29.

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    • Frame numbers ???

      Originally posted by Boilermaker9 View Post
      [ATTACH]46405[/ATTACH][ATTACH]46406[/ATTACH]
      I reposted these as I have an image of a ship in dd several years ago however it has similar shafting and is a graphic illustration of the shafting the phosphor bronze shaft liner/journal and the staves that line the bearing which fit in the stern tube and strut housing.
      Nice blue print and as a bonus it offers the Frame numbers as well? That's a guess of the scale at the bottom of the print.

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      • The bridge can be cozy....

        [QUOTE=FlankDestroyer;1043152]
        Originally posted by Boilermaker9 View Post

        Great pictures of the Pilot House, EOT and Speed Tables.


        To add to the above overview and thanks BTW.

        When the Conning Officer, the CON and sometimes the OOD, gave orders to the Engine Rooms he did it via the EOT, Engine Order Telegraph, which was operated by the Lee Helmsman. So the CON gave orders to the Lee Helmsman and he dialed it up so to speak on the EOT to include RPM. The EOT sent commands to both Engine Rooms simultaneously. Each engine room would acknowledge the order on the EOT so one could see that for both engines. Only engine #1 or Main Control would answer on RPMs as both engines typically used exactly the same RPM. Sound powered phones backed up the EOT engine orders. The Lee Helmsman was on the sound powered phones and the OOD would use the MC or Bitch Boxes to call Main Control to give them a heads up or ask a question about plant status.

        Occasionally when underway different shaft rpms were used but normally that was used only when there was a steering problem or for drills.

        Coming into port one would ring up Maneuvering Combinations, 999 RPMs, which would allow radically different shaft RPMS. For example one shaft maybe going 1/3 and another Ahead Standard or even a backing Bell. With one engine ahead and the other backing one could twist the ship in its own length. As the Fletchers only had one rudder they could not twist quite as well as the follow on Sumners/Gearings.

        The max RPMs on the Fletchers was higher than follow on classes. At maximum RPM, cavitation would occur which was not as efficient and noisy too.

        Interestingly enough some larger ships, a few CVs, would run normally with different shaft revolutions. That is outboard and inboard shaft rpms would be slightly different. This was done to reduce vibrations mostly as the propellers could be also be different ie number of blades & size.

        The engine commands/procedures over the years did not change much. My Father's Watch Officers Guide, circa 1942, is not appreciably different from the "1968" version when the Fletchers were leaving the Fleet en masse.

        The bridge can be a close quarters bee hive of activity. This photo on display at the WNY was a recreation of a Fletcher Class - DD bridge and identifies the sailors and officers.
        Attached Files

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        • Click image for larger version

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          in this photo one can see the "strut bearing housing", the "stern tube" bearing housing just commonly called the "stern tube" which in this particular case is cast as part of the "stern frame" . There is no "support/carrier strut" or "intermediate" strut as in the fletcher. the stern tube in the fletcher is incorporated into the transverse framing. another on of bilgepumps images of the "shaft alley" shows a box with a packing gland which I assume encapsulates the stern tube. This is my guess as I have not seen a print yet that reflects this feature. However from my experience it is plausable. In any case the same style shafting system is still being used in shafted ships mainly cargo ships, navy ships. Many other vessels such as cruse ships and tractor tugs for example have gone to the POD arrangement, which eliminates the need of a rudder. I digress.
          Back to the photo....on the drydock floor is the stern tube shaft, which fits into the stern tube. The 2 upper and lower stern tube bearing halves are laying nest to the shaft with the old staves installed, which in this case are rubber. This set up is almost identical to the fletcher however the staves would be wood as opposed to rubber. In this ship the stern tube shaft is installed with the flanged end exterior to the ship (this ship has the tail shaft bolted to the stern tube shaft on the exterior outside the ship, therefore after bolting the shafts together and are passed by the port engineer and QA, there is a waterproof covering installed and and a tallow like preservative pumped into the interior of the cover the cover is then sealed). the yellow strap is crossing over a phosphor bronze journal sleeve which is heated and pressed on to the shaft. This particular shaft is about 24" in diameter with the sleeve being 31 inches in diameter. The fletcher is less however I do not know what the diameter is although my guess is about 18 inches or so but again I do not know.

          The stern tube bearings and strut bearings are all lubricated by seawater flowing through the bearings. in the stern tube it is bumped into the housing and through the bearing in the strut ships motion creates a flow.
          The strut and stern tube bearings differ by an inch or so and are identically installed first shaft then lower half, then the upper half

          The men in the drydock give some perspective as to how massive this shafting is.
          Last edited by Boilermaker9; 17 Jul 18,, 18:38.

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          • The photo of the blueprint of the outboard profile of the Kid is not to scale. The scale is 1/4”. I believe the frame spacing on these ships is 24” on center. Some I believe were 18” centers from the bow foot to the collision bulkhead for ice and raming subs. Don’t quote me though as I am not sure.
            Last edited by Boilermaker9; 17 Jul 18,, 22:36.

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            • BM9 wrote:
              The photo of the blueprint of the outboard profile of the Kid is not to scale. The scale is 1/4”. I believe the frame spacing on these ships is 24” on center. Some I believe were 18” centers from the bow foot to the collision bulkhead for ice and raming subs. Don’t quote me though as I am not sure.
              I disagree - the usual scale for Booklet of General Plans for FLETCHER class DDs is 1/8" = 1'-0". I would bet my last dollar on this. That's why these sheets are usually 48" long - I have two of them in front of me that I'm looking at. The frame spacing on FLETCHER class DD's is 21" (per DD568 Docking Plan 12/11/52)

              Hope this helps!

              Comment


              • Hey, bbvet;
                Sorry to point out that Boilermaker9 said "Don’t quote me though as I am not sure." and you quoted him. :)

                Great posts, though. I love the technical detail, drawings and of course the photos of the well-maintained museum ships.

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                • Thebard has pointed out my failure to correctly reading another's post - Well, you are right - HOW could I have missed that "disclaimer"???? I stand corrected and apologize in advance of BM9's certain rebuttal!!! Must have been the time of the morning, etc. WAY too early for rational people to be up & about!!!

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                  • Originally posted by bbvet View Post
                    Thebard has pointed out my failure to correctly reading another's post - Well, you are right - HOW could I have missed that "disclaimer"???? I stand corrected and apologize in advance of BM9's certain rebuttal!!! Must have been the time of the morning, etc. WAY too early for rational people to be up & about!!!
                    No need to become impassioned no offense is taken as I recognize my limitations and encourage discourse since I do not believe any one knows everything about these destroyers, technical or otherwise. Thank you both for chiming in! I believe we all shine in our field of expertise and need a little help once we cross over our comfort zone. It appears bbvet is correct in regard to the docking prints as well as the booklet of general plans. The error was in front of me I mis read the scale of the print. Thank for pointing that out. However I do not have a docking print when one puts a normal rule on the outboard profile one can misread the frame spacing very easily, as did I.
                    Any way I went over my material scale of the fletcher Booklet of General Plans is in fact 1/8”=1’ I found a dd print of a gearing on the web which stated 21 “ frame spacing as well, which in my mind stands to reason as the gearings and summers were enlarged fletchers basically and the ship building industry was already set up for the fletchers so to expidite they kept frame spacing as well as many other things the same. Most notable the propulsion plant. Except they added another evap and a few other things. Not sure but I believe it to be so. SoClick image for larger version

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                    • BM9,

                      Oh, no emotion here - just giving you a semi-hard time!!! As I've mentioned before, I'm more or less a total student on this thread (DD engineering, machinery, etc) and only throw in the occasional rusty ball valve to gum up the works now and then!!!! I'm just glad we have active participants who have been there/done that and can fill in the blanks for those of us who didn't get too far down the ladder into the engineering spaces!!

                      And....the docking plan I have for USS WREN - same layout, same size, same everything EXCEPT different ship, different class, different shipyard. But other than THAT - samo, samo!!!!

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                      • Click image for larger version

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ID:	1476942[QUOTE=blidgepump;1043481]
                        Originally posted by FlankDestroyer View Post


                        The bridge can be a close quarters bee hive of activity. This photo on display at the WNY was a recreation of a Fletcher Class - DD bridge and identifies the sailors and officers.
                        I goofed with the attachment photos
                        The the top drawing of the post is of bridge/pilothouse of a Gearing. The Wood circa 1965
                        The bluePrint is of the Kidd circa 1961
                        The last drawing is of a Sumner the Keith 1968

                        Again I apologize for the confusion.promise to do better next time!
                        I thought it might be interesting to compare prints the bridges/pilot houses of a Fletcher, a Sumner and Gearing. I learned that the pilot house remained very crowded on the fletchers and summers almost identical but it appears that on the Wood probably during a FRAM conversion the front face of the pilot house was extended and widened to the original contour of the bridge bulwarks giving it more room. Point is the navigating area of many of these ships remained very confined all the way through the 1960to till decom. Thus making it very uncomfortable for the watchstanders. I know the machinery spaces remained unchanged till the day they were stricken from navy records. Interesting comparison. Click image for larger version

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                        Last edited by Boilermaker9; 18 Jul 18,, 23:11.

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                        • Been on "deployment" for a while so let me jump on the subject of manning for the bridge team.

                          Before I do thanks to BM 9 for answering my questions re fuel oil and tank heaters. I have some more fuel oil questions when orders from the bridge quiet down!

                          As regards the Fletcher Bridge representation here are a couple of comments. Not sure of the depiction era but I suspect late 40s/50ish??

                          1. There was a JOOD in addition to the OOD.
                          2. Usually the Yeoman was on watch only during special evolutions i.e. General Quarters. Yeoman were pretty squared away (write/record and speak well) and passed operational and damage reports from engineering and damage control central during battle/drills to the CO or XO and OOD.
                          3. Typically there was a junior Radarman/Operations Specialist (later circa 70ish) also in the Pilot House who was recording unknown Surface Contact reports from CIC on a status board (SKUNK board). The JOOD and perhaps the OOD would cross check the Closest Point of Approach (CPA) solutions from CIC with the bridge teams calculations. Incidentally this procedure would have probably solved the USS Fitzgerald's collision problem!
                          4. Lookouts (two) and signalmen were also part of the bridge watch team although they were not in the pilot house. Of course there was a lookout on the fantail as well.
                          5. As the amount of radar/communication equipment increased the open bridge forward of the pilot house was enclosed partially. The CO's chair was often located there. Sometimes this area was called the navigation bridge.

                          So BM9 you are right it was pretty crowded although most of the Officer team were not generally positioned in the pilot house (maybe in the North Atlantic). Actually some of the early Sumners (1943) had the Officers one level up (based on British thinking) but that did not last long. The 1960s FRAM I modifications to the Gearing Class included a substantially modified and more modern bridge very close to the what we have today....so there was one bigger Bridge space. FRAM II bridges were only slightly modified from the original and immediate post war design. Smaller bridges did have one advantage, the Officer team could easily run from one side to the other and see what was happening. Frankly not sure anybody thought about the cramped quarters as this is the way it was......like having "main control" in the forward engine room.

                          I think the first US Destroyer OEM design that had a "modern" single space was the Charles Adams Class. The first major post war class, F Sherman, bridge layout was not that dissimilar from the WWII Fletcher thru Gearing.

                          Comment


                          • The Bridge ....

                            Originally posted by FlankDestroyer View Post
                            Been on "deployment" for a while so let me jump on the subject of manning for the bridge team.

                            Before I do thanks to BM 9 for answering my questions re fuel oil and tank heaters. I have some more fuel oil questions when orders from the bridge quiet down!

                            As regards the Fletcher Bridge representation here are a couple of comments. Not sure of the depiction era but I suspect late 40s/50ish??

                            1. There was a JOOD in addition to the OOD.
                            2. Usually the Yeoman was on watch only during special evolutions i.e. General Quarters. Yeoman were pretty squared away (write/record and speak well) and passed operational and damage reports from engineering and damage control central during battle/drills to the CO or XO and OOD.
                            3. Typically there was a junior Radarman/Operations Specialist (later circa 70ish) also in the Pilot House who was recording unknown Surface Contact reports from CIC on a status board (SKUNK board). The JOOD and perhaps the OOD would cross check the Closest Point of Approach (CPA) solutions from CIC with the bridge teams calculations. Incidentally this procedure would have probably solved the USS Fitzgerald's collision problem!
                            4. Lookouts (two) and signalmen were also part of the bridge watch team although they were not in the pilot house. Of course there was a lookout on the fantail as well.
                            5. As the amount of radar/communication equipment increased the open bridge forward of the pilot house was enclosed partially. The CO's chair was often located there. Sometimes this area was called the navigation bridge.



                            So BM9 you are right it was pretty crowded although most of the Officer team were not generally positioned in the pilot house (maybe in the North Atlantic). Actually some of the early Sumners (1943) had the Officers one level up (based on British thinking) but that did not last long. The 1960s FRAM I modifications to the Gearing Class included a substantially modified and more modern bridge very close to the what we have today....so there was one bigger Bridge space. FRAM II bridges were only slightly modified from the original and immediate post war design. Smaller bridges did have one advantage, the Officer team could easily run from one side to the other and see what was happening. Frankly not sure anybody thought about the cramped quarters as this is the way it was......like having "main control" in the forward engine room.

                            I think the first US Destroyer OEM design that had a "modern" single space was the Charles Adams Class. The first major post war class, F Sherman, bridge layout was not that dissimilar from the WWII Fletcher thru Gearing.
                            Yes there were many evolutions of manning the bridge, from the "first round bridge" to the square bridge, and later the North Atlantic Bridge... at least that's what I call it.

                            The Fletcher's were ripe for modification. And every one seems to have it's own special bling. As to the number on the bridge, the photo was representative of a Round bridge as I recall.
                            Notably there is quite a bit more real estate on a North Atlantic Bridge. See attached photo.
                            Attached Files

                            Comment


                            • FlankDestroyer has provided a really detailed breakdown of the bridge watch on a FLETCHER. I stood bridge watch detail on STODDARD as a 1st Division Seaman Apprentice and then Seaman during our 66-67 Westpac Cruise. There was the OOD and JR OOD (LT/LTJG or ENS), the boatswain of the watch (BM2/BM3), Helmsman, Lee Helmsman, Phone Talker (you call this Yeoman of the Watch), Port/Stbd. lookouts (usually on the wings of the bridge or above on the overhead of the pilot house), After Life Buoy Lookout - the enlisted all rotated when bells were sounded so you basically during a 4 hour watch had covered all the positions of the watch at one time or another. Usually, in good weather (and we're talking Pacific, not Atlantic!) the officers were on the wings of the bridge and not inside the pilot house. Once in a while the CO would show up and stay for a while if we were simply steaming along without any particular evolution taking place. Later, when I became a PN3, I stood bridge watch as a phone talker during GQ and Condition 2 watches (mainly in the combat zone off the Vietnam Coast). The phone talker kept in contact with the After Life Buoy, Engineering, CIC, etc. and relayed anyting pertinent to the OOD/JOOD etc. This recollection, being just that, is subject to professional scrutiny by all!!!!!

                              That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!!!!

                              Comment


                              • FlankDestroyer sure has provided a great explanation and so have you bbvet! Very enlightening. With bilgepump Picture it gives a pretty well rounded explanation. One thing for sure I spent a long time in the navy a decades ago and I see that I spent way to much time below the main deck! Wow! On my first ship the Bryce Canyon I was in R DIV and did not normally stand underway watches although this changed and we wound up in the engineroom where I stood checks and burners. I will say the operating crew had a smoldering dislike for us as we invaded their territory! That said we did stand deck watches in port.. I stood bow and stern lookout in Japan during several snow storms .....very cold......with a sound powered phone on my head and an M1 in my hands and then graduated to quarterdeck messenger! I remember thinking at the time that we should let WW2 go and move on. Same ship same deployment in the Philippines we only stood quarterdeck and por/stbd brow. The only weapon we had was a colt 45. No look outs or sound powered phones.

                                So I had no clue what was going on underway, or perhaps I was to young to care. Any way the above recitals, to steel bilge pumps phrase, are enlightening and very interesting. I get a better perspective! There is a great deal going on and all “By Hand”. Everyone depended on everyone else and all got to do each other’s job. This is where comradradrie is born! Another thing I find interesting is switching positions at the “bell”. Is that every half hour or hour? We in the enginerooms stood there for 4 hr! Or 6 if we were short watch standers. Now on my ships and my watches I did switch watch standers around some although that was not necessarily policy. So in the fire room one started out messenger went to pumps, burners then checks then to blowers or top watch. In the enginreoom the was messenger, pumps, throttles, evaps, then top watch. One addition to each engineroom was an electrician as sparky was responsible for the electrical distribution. In #1 engineroom the top watch had control over the entire propulsion plant! In single engine ships pretty much the same except there was a boiler top watch and enginreoom top watch. The engine top watch having the overall plant authority. Now the above is as I recall for the “Small Boys”. The larger capital ships of the time, as they are today I emagine, have a bit of a different hierarchy as they had more “people” as we would say back in the day! Small Boys had the minimum crew, enough to keep them going!

                                I have a question about these ships. All of my navy career and civilian career I was told the fletcher gearing and sumner were the most successful classes of ships in history of USN. I was also told that on the drawing board these ships were to last 20 minutes in ship to ship battle, if they lasted that long they did their job. The Twenty minutes calculated time to get the crew off before she went under. Over the years I found very little other than hearsay. So is any of this true in your opinion? Just curious.
                                Last edited by Boilermaker9; 20 Jul 18,, 15:31. Reason: Addition I forgot about electricians

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