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Thread: Destroyers - Fletcher Class

  1. #3556
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    Quote Originally Posted by blidgepump View Post
    Certainly I've enjoyed reading this thread while on the road the past week.
    So some more fuel for the fire.... well fire room that is;

    Some jpegs of the forward fire room on a Fletcher DD.... rough!

    The image gives you some idea of the cramped crowded space the upper level/check level is on a fletcher destroyer. The gage glasses should be facing the camera. The check val is behind the camera man.Name:  Boiler_Room_On_Museume_Ship ww2dd.jpg
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  2. #3557
    Senior Contributor blidgepump's Avatar
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    Tight spaces...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boilermaker9 View Post
    The image gives you some idea of the cramped crowded space the upper level/check level is on a fletcher destroyer. The gage glasses should be facing the camera. The check val is behind the camera man.Name:  Boiler_Room_On_Museume_Ship ww2dd.jpg
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    BM9 that is one of the challenges when I tour USN ships, especially the DD's. Attempting to frame the shot! I cannot back up far enough. These two pictures have me assuming some unique physical positions.
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  3. #3558
    Senior Contributor blidgepump's Avatar
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    "The Board" ....

    The aft board has been beautifully restored.... versus the forward board that has had several parts borrowed.
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  4. #3559
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    Quote Originally Posted by blidgepump View Post
    BM9 that is one of the challenges when I tour USN ships, especially the DD's. Attempting to frame the shot! I cannot back up far enough. These two pictures have me assuming some unique physical positions.
    bilgepump, I can certainly appreciate the difficulties, you have shot some fantastic and near impossible images. I for one am most greatgul you have taken the time and have the patience and dexterity to shoot these images. The first appears to be one is a remarkable image of the Main Condenser Overboard gate valve. The main condenser has 2 inboards or suction’s and one overboard. In port when the main engine is lit off the the main circ pump takes a suction, circulates harbor water through the condenser and out the overboard. Main circ stays lit off till the ship in underway and up to a speed where the main scoop suction valve and secure the main circ.

    The second photo is of the business end or Head of an aux condenser for one of the SSTG. (Ship Steam Turbine Generator). The main engine and the sstg had their own condensing units, the remainder of the aux machinery discharged exhaust steam into an exhaust main and eventually went back to the DA tank. (Deairating Feed Tank) which did as the name implied as well as heat the condensate that came from the Hot Wells of the main and aux condenser it heated feed water using the exhaust steam. Those circular plates on the condenser head heads are clean out ports as the tubes scaled up and collected marine growth after a while therefore needed cleaning periodically.
    Again thanks for the images! Lots of fond and some not so fond memories!

  5. #3560
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    Wow! This discussion is incredible! Many thanks to Blidgepump and Boilermaker9, and all others who have contributed.

    It never would have occurred to me that there would be two Main Condenser Suctions. BM9, do I understand that each suction has it's own dedicated pump?
    Also, what operates that Main Condenser Overboard gate valve? Is that an electric actuator, or motor, that I'm looking at?

    And, could you, or anyone in the know, explain what the four valve wheels operate in the picture of the forward and after boards?

    Finding updates on this discussion reminds me of how I would feel when I would find new posts from Rusty Battleship and Desertswo.

  6. #3561
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser View Post
    Wow! This discussion is incredible! Many thanks to Blidgepump and Boilermaker9, and all others who have contributed.

    It never would have occurred to me that there would be two Main Condenser Suctions. BM9, do I understand that each suction has it's own dedicated pump?
    Also, what operates that Main Condenser Overboard gate valve? Is that an electric actuator, or motor, that I'm looking at?

    And, could you, or anyone in the know, explain what the four valve wheels operate in the picture of the forward and after boards?

    Finding updates on this discussion reminds me of how I would feel when I would find new posts from Rusty Battleship and Desertswo.
    Hi Cruser, Each Fletcher Destroyer has 2 identical firerooms and enginerooms. Each entirely independent of the other. Each engine set HP and LP (High Pressure and Low Pressure) turbine is geared to a reduction gear set which bolts to the line shaft. The HPuses steam and dumps it into the LP which exhausts the steam to the Main Condenser. This unit is hung from the LP casting and supported with bilge framing. So each engine set has a main circ pump and a main scoop (main injection or main suction), which has a very large opening in the bottom of hull maybe a few feet off centerline. The opening is oblong and is about 24 inches and about 48” long, I don’t have a scoop print for a Fletcher so the size I give is approximate but it is in the ball park, by which the movement of the ship through the water forces salt water through the condenser. I believe it the speed has to be has to be at least 6 or 8 kts to over come the main circ pump. Ships would leave the main circ rolling over incase there was a stop bell or reverse or slow bell so when the ship lost fwd motion the main circ would take over. I am not sure about the speed it may be 12 kts. In any case the speed has to be sufficient to push water through the condenser,at a greater volume and velocity than the main circ can provide. There is a check valve in the Main Circ Discharge that closes when this limit is reached when this happens a recirc valve opens so that the pump does not burn up. There is also a check valve on the main scoop. this prevents the scoop and the circuit pump from fighting each other. When the ship slows down past a certain point then the scoop check valve closes and the circuit pump takes over and visa versa. So each ship has 2 identical enginerooms and 2 identical firerooms. In each engineroom there is a generator which has its own condenser. However this unit operates separate salt water supply with its own pump. The generators have the ability to dump their exhaust steam into the main condenser or use their own salt water supply, this is done sometimes isteaming auxiliary. So she short answer is each ship has 2main condensers and 2 SSTG condensers that are independandt of one another. Each condenser has a dedicated suction and discharge of salt water.
    The main condenser overboard is a large valve about 27 inches in diameter. There is a large valve wheel located on the upper level with a stout reach rod that goes vertically down to a gear book and from therea horozontal rod attaches to another gear box attached to the valve stem. These valves are Normally operated from the upper level location but can be operated at the valve itself. Although the one in the photo does not appear so. There is a suction/main scoop valve also of the same diameter operated in the same manner. Both are long winded and take many turns to open and close.

    Again the demensions I give are approximate and from memory I use them to give an idea of the magnitude of this equipment and the brute force and skill it takes to man thes spaces.

    The copper cover over the valve stem of the overboard discharge is covering a gear box that the reach rod operates. As stated above would be a vertical shaft from the upper level that terminates in a gear box which the horizontal another shaft is connected. All of this gearing gives mechanical advantage against water pressure but I so doing increases the turns to operate the valve.

    The fletchers all had hand operate valves in the propulsion plant.The cruisers aircraft carriers and B B with larger plants with greater volumes had air or hydraulic assist (non flammable hydraulic fluid)
    To my recolection.

    The valve wheels on the gage board in the center image are, from left to right, are the large wheel is for the hp turbine, the smaller one next to it is for the reverse wheel of the LP turbine, the smaller one next to it, is for the cruising turbine and the last one is for the crossover valve to the LP turbine. In the lower image they are in reverse order however all fletchers had these valve wheels in the same order in each ship.

    Hope this answers your inquiry Cruser. All have a great evening!
    Last edited by Boilermaker9; Yesterday at 16:45.

  7. #3562
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    Cruiser/BM9,

    As this discussion continues, it's really like a mini-class on How to Operate your typ. FLETCHER class DD!!!! Here is a clip from a much larger drawing of the Docking Plan for DD-568 (USS WREN) drawn up at Charleston NSD on 11 DEC 52 - it shows both of the condenser scoops that BM9 describes as well as a few other items. The plan view is below the starboard side profile. Remember, you are looking UP at the ship from the exterior in the Plan View:
    Name:  DD568 Condenser Opng_2.JPG
Views: 33
Size:  148.3 KB (From Drawing #683714)

    I hope this helps assist in the visual aids dept.!

    Hank

  8. #3563
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbvet View Post
    Cruiser/BM9,

    As this discussion continues, it's really like a mini-class on How to Operate your typ. FLETCHER class DD!!!! Here is a clip from a much larger drawing of the Docking Plan for DD-568 (USS WREN) drawn up at Charleston NSD on 11 DEC 52 - it shows both of the condenser scoops that BM9 describes as well as a few other items. The plan view is below the starboard side profile. Remember, you are looking UP at the ship from the exterior in the Plan View:
    Name:  DD568 Condenser Opng_2.JPG
Views: 33
Size:  148.3 KB (From Drawing #683714)

    I hope this helps assist in the visual aids dept.!

    Hank
    Wow! it sure does bbvet! This takes the conversation to a different level! If I am correct there is a whole host of information on a docking print. If I am not mistaken there is also aan attending blocking plan for each ship that gives the construction of the block usually cement, the shape of the soft cap (oak or some hard wood) and height of each block used for the ship , as well exact location of each and last the max loading on each block. That is to say all keel blocks and all side or bilge blocks (side/ bilge blocks are set just inboard of the turn of the bilge to prevent the ship from rolling over). In the old days they used poles from the dock side to the ships side. Sorry I digress.

    1. There were three docking positions. The Blocking takes up a lot of hull surface area, you can not clean and paint between the hull and the block cap without ether removing the block or removing the ship and resetting the blocks to a different position. (fleeting blocks or ship). Fleeting is expensive and very time consuming, and since each ship had to get in and out of dock as fast as practicable there is three docking or blocking positions and these are identified in the docking report. The docking report would tell which position was last. So if the ship was last dridicked in position 2 then you would want to set the blocks for position 3 and so on. When a ship is Dry Docked she sits on concrete blocks with wooden caps( softcap) each block for a Fletcher is perhaps 48 inches square or 16 sq ft if you do the math that iss a substantial area of the hull. Note this has increased over the years as ships have become larger and heavier). Therefore they change position at each dry-docking and at the end of the overall maintenance cycle the whole hull is eventually maintained. Today it is a little different and much more efficient...another story for another time..perhaps.

    2. The docking print identifies all hull openings and underwater hull appendages such as the pit sord (Speed Log the equivalent of a speedometer) or the sonar dome. Yes sonar was in its infancy back in ww2. All these openings are dotted lined and each is identified. One does not want to set the ship down, with a block covering an opening or crushing the sonar dome! that could result in career difficulties!

    3. If one looks closely one can see frame numbers which are used to judge the relative position of the blocks to the openings and to each frame. For instance. The scoop injection openings around frame 90 port side of centerline which is the fwd engine room as an example.

    4. The docking print also gives the location of each block and the centerline distance apart from each other....to insure the ships weight is evenly distributed on the frames and not the hull plate, and the keel. Also very important.

    5. When we did a docking inspection after the ship was dry-docked we made sure there was no block covering any opening and we annotated a copy of the print with our findings. if we found an errant block we went to the deck master and he and the naval Archetect did some calcs and removed the offending block.

    6. These prints are also used to identify all sea valves each opening is considered a sea chest. Each sea chest has at least one sea valve bolted to it. Note; all sea valves were generally overhauled/replaced in Drydock. There generally is 2 valves per sea chest, a stop valve and a guardian, except the main condenser which only had stop valves. These valves can be overhauled with the ship in the water but that requires cofferdams, divers, air compressors, time and money! Drydock was/is today the more efficient option, overhaul them them all in one fel swoop! there by giving the ship a full deck of cards.

    7. When these ships went into the reserve fleet they were dry-docked and every hull opening was hard blanked(welded to the hull) each blank was numbered which corresponded to a system and was photographed with location on the hull annotated on the docking plan. This plan became a bart of the ships "6 part" inactive fleet folder.

    I may have forgotten a few things and please fill in any blanks I may have created which goes for any of these writings I do, I am by no means infallible or the recognized expert. I do have some experience however memory and time are a funny thing! as we will all find out...later rather than sooner I trust.

    I hope one can get the idea that the docking plan was and is today a very important ships document! Often times misunderstood.

  9. #3564
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbvet View Post
    Cruiser/BM9,

    As this discussion continues, it's really like a mini-class on How to Operate your typ. FLETCHER class DD!!!! Here is a clip from a much larger drawing of the Docking Plan for DD-568 (USS WREN) drawn up at Charleston NSD on 11 DEC 52 - it shows both of the condenser scoops that BM9 describes as well as a few other items. The plan view is below the starboard side profile. Remember, you are looking UP at the ship from the exterior in the Plan View:
    Name:  DD568 Condenser Opng_2.JPG
Views: 33
Size:  148.3 KB (From Drawing #683714)

    I hope this helps assist in the visual aids dept.!

    Hank
    Wow! it sure does bbvet! This takes the conversation to a different level! If I am correct there is a whole host of information on a docking print. If I am not mistaken there is also aan attending blocking plan for each ship that gives the construction of the block usually cement, the shape of the soft cap (oak or some hard wood) and height of each block used for the ship , as well exact location of each and last the max loading on each block. That is to say all keel blocks and all side or bilge blocks (side/ bilge blocks are set just inboard of the turn of the bilge to prevent the ship from rolling over). In the old days they used poles from the dock side to the ships side. Sorry I digress.

    1. There were three docking positions. The Blocking takes up a lot of hull surface area, you can not clean and paint between the hull and the block cap without ether removing the block or removing the ship and resetting the blocks to a different position. (fleeting blocks or ship). Fleeting is expensive and very time consuming, and since each ship had to get in and out of dock as fast as practicable there is three docking or blocking positions and these are identified in the docking report. The docking report would tell which position was last. So if the ship was last dridicked in position 2 then you would want to set the blocks for position 3 and so on. When a ship is Dry Docked she sits on concrete blocks with wooden caps( softcap) each block for a Fletcher is perhaps 48 inches square or 16 sq ft if you do the math that iss a substantial area of the hull. Note this has increased over the years as ships have become larger and heavier). Therefore they change position at each dry-docking and at the end of the overall maintenance cycle the whole hull is eventually maintained. Today it is a little different and much more efficient...another story for another time..perhaps.

    2. The docking print identifies all hull openings and underwater hull appendages such as the pit sord (Speed Log the equivalent of a speedometer) or the sonar dome. Yes sonar was in its infancy back in ww2. All these openings are dotted lined and each is identified. One does not want to set the ship down, with a block covering an opening or crushing the sonar dome! that could result in career difficulties!

    3. If one looks closely one can see frame numbers which are used to judge the relative position of the blocks to the openings and to each frame. For instance. The scoop injection openings around frame 90 port side of centerline which is the fwd engine room as an example.

    4. The docking print also gives the location of each block and the centerline distance apart from each other....to insure the ships weight is evenly distributed on the frames and not the hull plate, and the keel. Also very important.

    5. When we did a docking inspection after the ship was dry-docked we made sure there was no block covering any opening and we annotated a copy of the print with our findings. if we found an errant block we went to the deck master and he and the naval Archetect did some calcs and removed the offending block.

    6. These prints are also used to identify all sea valves each opening is considered a sea chest. Each sea chest has at least one sea valve bolted to it. Note; all sea valves were generally overhauled/replaced in Drydock. There generally is 2 valves per sea chest, a stop valve and a guardian, except the main condenser which only had stop valves. These valves can be overhauled with the ship in the water but that requires cofferdams, divers, air compressors, time and money! Drydock was/is today the more efficient option, overhaul them them all in one fel swoop! there by giving the ship a full deck of cards.

    7. When these ships went into the reserve fleet they were dry-docked and every hull opening was hard blanked(welded to the hull) each blank was numbered which corresponded to a system and was photographed with location on the hull annotated on the docking plan. This plan became a bart of the ships "6 part" inactive fleet folder.

    I may have forgotten a few things and please fill in any blanks I may have created which goes for any of these writings I do, I am by no means infallible or the recognized expert. I do have some experience however memory and time are a funny thing! as we will all find out...later rather than sooner I trust.

    I hope one can get the idea that the docking plan was and is today a very important ships document! Often times misunderstood.

  10. #3565
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boilermaker9 View Post
    Hi Cruser, ..
    The valve wheels on the gage board in the center image are, from left to right, are the large wheel is for the hp turbine, the smaller one next to it is for the reverse wheel of the LP turbine, the smaller one next to it, is for the cruising turbine and the last one is for the crossover valve to the LP turbine. In the lower image they are in reverse order however all fletchers had these valve wheels in the same order in each ship.

    Hope this answers your inquiry Cruser. All have a great evening!
    BM9 Any chance one of those wheels on the "Throttle Board", gage board, is the Guard Valve or Guarding Valve instead of the Crossover Valve? I tried to read the letters on the actual throttles but seeeeiinnnnngggggg is hard these days.
    Last edited by FlankDestroyer; Yesterday at 17:12.

  11. #3566
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    BM9,

    The complete drawing is (I think) around 5' long - it is 1/8" scale and I do have a full size print of it but not here at work. It does give the information you mentioned in tabular block form. One note about the clipped section I attached - the various groups of three blocks that are shown in the plan view - those are the three positions for the placement of blocks depending on (as you mentioned) where the last docking position of a block happened to be. Here is a photo of USS ROSS (DD-563) in drydock in 1951:
    Name:  DD-563 Discharges Port Side 1951_1.jpg
Views: 18
Size:  122.4 KB
    This shows the row of side blocks supporting the ship. I appreciate your knowledge as to pointing out the various parts of the drawing and why that information was included. When I get my FLETCHER class DD model underway, I intend to use this docking plan for placement of the blocks on the display base. So, there is a method to my madness!!

    Hope this helps!

    Hank

  12. #3567
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlankDestroyer View Post
    BM9 Any chance one of those wheels on the "Throttle Board", gage board, is the Guard Valve or Guarding Valve instead of the Crossover Valve? I tried to read the letters on the actual throttles but seeeeiinnnnngggggg is hard these days.
    FlankDestroyer in my experience the guardian valves are located near the stop valve. Which in this case would be the bulkhead stop from the fireroom. They as the name implies guard the stop valve in case it does not work then the guardian is the. The gage board only controls the throttles. If you look closely at the photos you will see brass indicators with a pointer that indicates how far the valve is open or close. They were used as a double check on the valve in case the steam chest pressure gage for that unit was faulty and at cold plant start up one would verify that the that the throttle valves were closed before opening the bulkhead stop!
    The short answers is the throttle board only contained thevalve wheels for the throttle valves. The guardian valves were located elsewhere. Hope this clarifies your inquire. Sorry if I get long winded.

  13. #3568
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbvet View Post
    BM9,

    The complete drawing is (I think) around 5' long - it is 1/8" scale and I do have a full size print of it but not here at work. It does give the information you mentioned in tabular block form. One note about the clipped section I attached - the various groups of three blocks that are shown in the plan view - those are the three positions for the placement of blocks depending on (as you mentioned) where the last docking position of a block happened to be. Here is a photo of USS ROSS (DD-563) in drydock in 1951:
    Name:  DD-563 Discharges Port Side 1951_1.jpg
Views: 18
Size:  122.4 KB
    This shows the row of side blocks supporting the ship. I appreciate your knowledge as to pointing out the various parts of the drawing and why that information was included. When I get my FLETCHER class DD model underway, I intend to use this docking plan for placement of the blocks on the display base. So, there is a method to my madness!!

    Hope this helps!

    Hank
    Thanks for chiming in bbvet! It does clarify the the bilge blocks, however it raises another question, does the print mention the keel blocks? Or perhaps they were fleeted or removed say for example every third one removed and then the next dd they would shift to another third and so on. Or does the print a different docking position entirely? Thanks again bbvet

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