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Thread: Destroyers - Fletcher Class

  1. #3451
    Senior Contributor blidgepump's Avatar
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    Kamikaze & Butt Straps ...

    I'm back home again and catching up on the thread.
    There has been quite a bit of discussion about "butt straps" and "deck straps".
    So attached are a couple of pictures of the USS KIDD & USS CASSIN YOUNG which I understand are what is be addressed?
    These are different than the expansion joint.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbvet View Post
    BM9,

    Well, that sort of clarifies things a bit. I would, however, somewhat disagree with your use of "butt strap" in referring to deck plating. Unless I'm mistaken, "Butt Strap" refers to the steel strip that is riveted at the joint of two adjoining steel side plates making up the skin of the hull. These are visible on FLETCHER class DD's and IOWA class BBs, and probably most other classes of older DDs, as well. I suppose that you could call the deck straps as "butt plates" as they essentially perform the same function. Your mention of the raised BS on the KIDD - possibly due to the reason why it was located there (Kamikaze hit) to begin with. In regards to the stresses at sea on a hull - there are expansion joints built into the hulls of ships and this is visible on the Fletchers/IOWA class as a hinged plate that is located athwart ship in the deck to hide or cover the opening in the deck where the expansion is located. Keeps the crew from tripping over the open slot. If memory serves me correctly, the deck "straps" on STODDARD were wide (like 12" or so). Here is a shot of the hull plate "butt strap" on USS BOYD:
    Attachment 45524
    Here is my ship (USS STODDARD) in 1954 and shows two of the "butt straps" on the stbd side:
    Attachment 45525

    Does this make things clearer or only muddy the water??? Please correct me if I'm wrong!
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  2. #3452
    Senior Contributor blidgepump's Avatar
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    Deck strap .....

    and now pictures of a deck strap? Yes?
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    Last edited by blidgepump; 11 Mar 18, at 03:50.

  3. #3453
    Senior Contributor blidgepump's Avatar
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    Spring thraw ....

    With the snow beginning to melt across the upper Great Plains, the Mississippi River is staging high.
    These two comparison photos showing youngsters exploring the riverbed off of KIDD's port side during the late Summer vs. a recent photo by Tim NesSmith. Note the height of the mooring dolphins in the dry season vs. what is visible in the earlier photos.
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  4. #3454
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    Does she settle on the keel blocks on her own, or is there some procedure that has to be followed when the water level drops?

  5. #3455
    Senior Contributor blidgepump's Avatar
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    The rise and fall of the KIDD...

    Quote Originally Posted by thebard View Post
    Does she settle on the keel blocks on her own, or is there some procedure that has to be followed when the water level drops?
    Yes, the DD is held in place by the mooring dolphins. As the river rises the DD slides up the poles and falls with the river stage. The rubber blocks are aligned and cushion the keel and cradle the hull.
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  6. #3456
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    I believe I have caused some confusion, perhaps the following will clarify some of it. All riveted "butt joints" in any assembly, a building, a ship, a boiler, a air tank for instance-- -where two riveted plates are joined on the same plane (where two plates are being joined edge to edge) require a "butt strap", either a single "butt strap"on one face, or a double with a butt strap on the outside and inside face of the same joint. In some places it may be called a " cover plate" or strap. The butt strap brings strength to the joint in question. Double "butt strap" is commonly found in riveted pressure vessels, where greater pressure is present, which requires greater strength, such as older boilers, steam locomotives for example. Where two plates are joined that require a "sheer face" on one side then the "butt strap" is on the opposite face. It appears from Bilge Pumps's highly detailed images of the Kidd that the "side shell", (vertical face of the hull) is lap jointed horizontally and vertically in some areas and other areas they used a "butt strap" some vertical lap joints. Some of the lap joints extend into the "boot toping" (the black band just above the red underwater hull. From the turn of the keel all the way aft, and as far as the image shows of the "underwater hull" all vertical joints have the butt strap on the inside of the hull presenting a sheer face on the underwater hull allowing the ship to glide the water, minimizing resistance to the forward motion of the ship. In the area of the boot topping such a lot the hull there by presenting a "sheer face" to the water. this lowers the resistance of the hull as she glides through the water. On the vertical "side shell" a sheer face is not required, hence visible but straps and lap joints. (joint where one plate is extended over its neighbor an riveted)
    The advent, acceptance and refinement of welding eliminated the need for butt straps, and lap joints in general, as the two plates to be joined were butt welded. Depending on the joint type, strength required, and type of steel in the plates, sometimes a backing strip is used in the root pass of the weld.
    Great note ! I am finely able to post images...however I have a learning curve as to how. I have a section drawing of the Kidd booklet of general plans, updated 1963, that clearly show the lapped longitudinal joints of the hull plating, which I shall provide as soon as I figure out how. For now I hope the explanation clears up some confusion. Anyone who wishes to add or subtract from this please chime in. Accurate information for anyone is key to credibility. Mistakes need to be corrected especially mine! Thanks

  7. #3457
    Senior Contributor blidgepump's Avatar
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    Measure 22 ....

    The three (3) Fletcher DD's on display ( Buffalo, Charlestown & Baton Rouge) each display a different color scheme.
    Recently the USS KIDD's crew has been slowly returning it's paint scheme towards Measure # 22.
    I've yet to study this artwork but noted the ""black dunce caps" on the ship are turning "Grey".
    If there is a modeler out there who can fill in the gaps of this posting addressing the Measure 22 scheme... the floor is yours.
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  8. #3458
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    BP,

    Well, I'm certainly no camo guy and I don't think this has anything to do with Measure 22.

    My first impression is twofold:
    a) The Kidd Pirate has been removed for repainting of the stack (that's obvious!)
    b) the gray is a primer and the stack cap will be repainted black overall when finished.

    Does that make sense? I don't think there's anything more to it. Of course, there could be a more sinister move behind all this, one never knows these days......!
    Last edited by bbvet; 20 Mar 18, at 13:19.

  9. #3459
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    Black paint arrived .....

    Quote Originally Posted by bbvet View Post
    BP,

    Well, I'm certainly no camo guy and I don't think this has anything to do with Measure 22.

    My first impression is twofold:
    a) The Kidd Pirate has been removed for repainting of the stack (that's obvious!)
    b) the gray is a primer and the stack cap will be repainted black overall when finished.

    Does that make sense? I don't think there's anything more to it. Of course, there could be a more sinister move behind all this, one never knows these days......!
    I was wondering about the black paint on the stack.
    It appears the black tipped stack was not standard on WWII Fletchers.
    Kind of like the big hull numbers.
    I have no idea the Measure number for the photo attached ???
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  10. #3460
    Senior Contributor blidgepump's Avatar
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    Measure # 22 ....

    Long lunch hour so I've been seeking information about the Measure # 22 USN paint scheme.

    Vertical Surfaces:

    Navy Blue 5-N

    To be applied to the hull to the height of the main deck edge at its lowest point. The upper edge of this Navy Blue are should be horizontal.

    Haze Gray, 5-H

    All remaining vertical surfaces and all masts and small gear.

    Horizontal Surfaces:

    Horizontal surfaces, Deck Blue, 20-B.

    Now with Paul Allen finding the USS Juneau on March 17, perhaps some Fletcher DD's will be next? Note that The USS Juneau's superstructure has retained the Measure 12 camouflage scheme from the first image, but her hull has been repainted into another scheme.
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  11. #3461
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    So, with that in mind - perhaps someone pointed out this fact to the KIDD Museum folks and the gray will now replace the black to get the color scheme correct. But the removal of the Kidd Pirate placard also tells me that they plan to repaint the entire stack or simply removed this while the cap painting took place (in order not to camo the pirate!).

    As a matter of fact, I just turned over my USS SULLIVANS book to the back cover (yes, I have it a work, Thank You very much!!!) and she is rendered in Measure 22 - WITH GRAY STACK CAPS!!! So, there you go!!! Problem solved!!!!!!

  12. #3462
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    Share....

    Quote Originally Posted by bbvet View Post
    So, with that in mind - perhaps someone pointed out this fact to the KIDD Museum folks and the gray will now replace the black to get the color scheme correct. But the removal of the Kidd Pirate placard also tells me that they plan to repaint the entire stack or simply removed this while the cap painting took place (in order not to camo the pirate!).

    As a matter of fact, I just turned over my USS SULLIVANS book to the back cover (yes, I have it a work, Thank You very much!!!) and she is rendered in Measure 22 - WITH GRAY STACK CAPS!!! So, there you go!!! Problem solved!!!!!!
    Could you share a picture of your DD with measure 22?

  13. #3463
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    How about Waller and Pringle in MS 22

    Name:  USS_Waller_(DD-466_October_1942.jpg
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    Name:  USS_Pringle_(DD-477)_underway_in_December_1942.jpg
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    The picture of Fletcher is when commissioned, but before going to the Pacific. She is in MS 12mod
    Its called Tourist Season. So why can't we shoot them?

  14. #3464
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    Quote Originally Posted by blidgepump View Post

    Now with Paul Allen finding the USS Juneau on March 17, perhaps some Fletcher DD's will be next? Note that The USS Juneau's superstructure has retained the Measure 12 camouflage scheme from the first image, but her hull has been repainted into another scheme.
    Not repainted. Its still MS 12Mod.

    There was no set pattern for that Camo Measure. So no two ships will look alike

    Surfaces and corners of surfaces useful in estimating course angles may be broken-up by means of large splotches of paint. These should not be smaller than the resolving power of the eye at the ranges at which it is desired to create confusion. The resolving power of the human eye by day is about two to three minutes of arc depending on the color contrast. Very small blotches are ineffective. The total area covered by the pattern should not be more than about 1/3 of the area of the surface in question. The splotches may be regular or irregular. The color of the splotch should be chosen from the three Blue Gray colors if Plate 12 to contrast with the color of the surface. Thus if the surface is Sea Blue the splotches are Haze Gray, and vice versa; if the surface is Ocean Gray the splotches are Sea Blue. the edges of the splotches may either be left sharp, or blurred into the surface color, or partially sharp and partially blurred. No exact form of spots can be specified. Some examples are given in Plate 19. It is probable that almost any spot pattern devised at random, within the above restrictions of size, relative area, and color contrast, will on the average be as effective as any other pattern.
    My online, go to source for Camouflage Measures

    http://www.shipcamouflage.com/measures.htm

    My on line source for what ship wore what and when

    http://www.shipcamouflage.com/camouflage_database.htm
    Its called Tourist Season. So why can't we shoot them?

  15. #3465
    Senior Contributor blidgepump's Avatar
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    Measure 1 through ....

    GG, that is a terrific index. TY for the link.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post
    Not repainted. Its still MS 12Mod.

    There was no set pattern for that Camo Measure. So no two ships will look alike



    My online, go to source for Camouflage Measures

    http://www.shipcamouflage.com/measures.htm

    My on line source for what ship wore what and when

    http://www.shipcamouflage.com/camouflage_database.htm

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