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  • #91
    Originally posted by S2 View Post
    Colonel,

    "The ANA is strainging to be unleashed. It is time to unleashed them and the Taliban will wish for the day before we left Afghanistan."

    Sir, you may be correct. I remember a story of a Tajik-dominated ANP unit working in Kandahar with the Canadians that was purportedly rather good. They garnered no love lost among the pashtuns and, evidently, didn't care but the Canadians had no complaint and felt they pursued their work robustly.
    'Unleashing' the ANA could have very detrimental effects. The ANA does have some units that might be predominantly of one ethnic group, but most are multi-ethnic although their officer corps is heavily Tajik (I believe). However, a unit composed of out of town personnel will not feel the same constraints as a local would. They may not hesititate to brutilize or extort money from the locals, both counter-productive to what we're trying to do. However, the ANA is generally seen in quite a good light around many parts. They tend to be fairly professional and not brutalize the locals. The same cannot be send for much of the local police.

    While I agree with you, how successful we are won't be apparent until we leave, let's try to build as strong an institution as possible. If we don't, the place may fall to the TB and AQ will move right back in. Then all the cash and lives lost will be wasted.

    Comment


    • #92
      With Allah's help,there are plenty of places now where AQ can move and establish itself.Why would you bother with A-stan when you have Cyrenaica,Yemen,Somalia.More to follow in the short term future.Fact is A-stan has ceased to be as important as it was in the grand scheme of things,even if it breaks my heart to think of all the lives lost there.Money as well,but those are a secondary concern.
      Those who know don't speak
      He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by JCT View Post
        While I agree with you, how successful we are won't be apparent until we leave, let's try to build as strong an institution as possible. If we don't, the place may fall to the TB and AQ will move right back in. Then all the cash and lives lost will be wasted.
        I don't think so. I'm looking at a bloodbath unseen since the days of the Tammerlane. And it won't be AQ/TB following old Timur's footsteps.

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        • #94
          They may not hesititate to brutilize or extort money from the locals, both counter-productive to what we're trying to do.
          Once we leave we aren't trying to do anything - I can't see the ANA paying heed to "COIN scholars" on winning the hearts and minds.
          To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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          • #95
            "I can't see the ANA paying heed to "COIN scholars" on winning the hearts and minds."

            I think we'll find the most enduring legacy of ours will be our money. When it's gone, so too will be the afghan memory of America.

            Of course, long shall the tales of victory over our forces be passed from father to son around the campfires of their peoples. Each will have personally slain at least one American warrior in epic combat.
            "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
            "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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            • #96
              Originally posted by S2 View Post
              Of course, long shall the tales of victory over our forces be passed from father to son around the campfires of their peoples. Each will have personally slain at least one American warrior in epic combat.
              Or they kill a 1000 Taliban while the Americans coward behind their walls. Propaganda works both ways.

              Comment


              • #97
                I think we'll find the most enduring legacy of ours will be our money. When it's gone, so too will be the afghan memory of America.
                We will be joined to the hip of whoever runs Kabul for a long time.
                To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                Comment


                • #98
                  not as much as the chinese, lol.
                  There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                  • #99
                    Found it mildly interesting that Adm. Mullen finally pulled his nose out of Kiyani's azz and called out the ISI publically for their involvement with Haqqani et al while (again) in Pakistan recently.

                    Let's be clear- our CJCS has just accused an ally of long supporting a proxy war upon our own troops. Well overdue given the litany of accrued facts. GROSSLY overdue to the point of cowardice.

                    Yup. Does the CJCS owe an apology to the families of our troops who've died at the hands of these men when this information has been known for soooo terribly long? Do the combined leaderships of the Bush and Obama administrations owe the same?

                    Yes. The bald fact is that our ostensible ally has been waging a proxy war upon America even as we've lavished vast sums of money to absolutely ZERO useful purpose. None.

                    Before you mention that we've been able to supply our Afghan effort through Pakistan consider the cost and results. Extrordinary for the former and negligible for the latter. Our security was restored in late 2001 for a pittance of what we've since spent in blood and money. The maintenence of that security could have been achieved at the same near-miniscule cost and with far greater leverage by remaining UNENGAGED with Pakistani government save a stark and crystalline warning of war the good ol' fashioned yank way-from afar with overwhelming devastation.

                    What was Pakistan's option? Making war on INDIA? Neither our problem and the end of Pakistan.

                    I am ashamed of our military and civilian leaders. My bitterness knows no bound when I consider Mullen's belated and empty accusation.

                    If I'm the Pakistani GHQ in Rawalpindi I'm laughing my azz off and saying to Mullen,

                    "So fcukin' what? Do SOMETHING about it..."

                    They know we won't. Hell, we'll probably expedite more hardware and money to them.
                    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                    Comment


                    • Steve,

                      Our military leaders have long since given up a military solution. There's only a political and economic solution now. When we leave, the ISI would bound to come into conflict with their political masters and I mean Beijing, not Islamabad. I, for one, smile at the prospect.

                      Comment


                      • steve,

                        The maintenence of that security could have been achieved at the same near-miniscule cost and with far greater leverage by remaining UNENGAGED with Pakistani government save a stark and crystalline warning of war the good ol' fashioned yank way-from afar with overwhelming devastation.
                        the pakistanis knew by the end of 2002 that this would have been an empty threat. not only was a good portion of american combat power rapidly shifting to iraq, they also knew that putting on a show of just kinda-sorta-not-really helping would be more than a sufficient cover for their nefarious activities.

                        no way a US President was, and is, going to risk war with a nuclear-armed state if all it did was raise the cost of doing business. we'd risk it if they baldly prevented us from reaching a strategic objective, ie if they kept us from the Taliban/AQ in fall 2001.

                        yes, rationally speaking pakistan would have very limited options against a US long-range strike. however, they would have more options if it meant the US had to go all the way to a land invasion, and that is always a (more than) distinct possibility when it comes to war.
                        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                          the pakistanis knew by the end of 2002 that this would have been an empty threat. not only was a good portion of american combat power rapidly shifting to iraq, they also knew that putting on a show of just kinda-sorta-not-really helping would be more than a sufficient cover for their nefarious activities.
                          That early? If they could do it in late 2002, that indicates a startling level of strategic intelligence. The Paks have always been good at tactical sort of decision-making, so I wouldn't have been surprised if they scented opportunity late 2004-ish. But if they could see how the puzzles fit so far back, it is quite impressive in a perverted way.

                          Comment


                          • Astralis,I have a question,which is only half serious.Why don't you buy the Russian Intelligence service?
                            Last edited by Mihais; 21 Apr 11,, 19:13.
                            Those who know don't speak
                            He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                            Comment


                            • cactus,

                              If they could do it in late 2002, that indicates a startling level of strategic intelligence. The Paks have always been good at tactical sort of decision-making, so I wouldn't have been surprised if they scented opportunity late 2004-ish.
                              they were already playing the game shortly after getting threatened/kowtowing in fall 2001.

                              Pakistan's ISI playing dangerous game | World news | The Guardian

                              this accelerated by fall 2002 when it was becoming clear that US combat capability/political interest was shifting towards iraq.
                              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                              Comment


                              • mihais,

                                Astralis,I have a question,which is only half serious.Why don't you buy the Russian Intelligence service?
                                the US is already working with them, and have been for quite a while on a variety of subjects.
                                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                                Comment

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