Marshal Petain - hero or traitor?

[Blademaster]

I read about Marshal Petain on Wiki and some forums. I would like to get the opinion of this site.

What is your take on Petain? Was he a hero or a traitor or placed in an untenable position after France was defeated and made into a scapegoat?

I think he was placed in an untenable position. I think he was trying to save France from Nazi Germany and so he took all the blame. He knew he was an old man and had very little years left so he became the scapegoat.

[Shek]

Petain failed to prepare France for the impending Nazi Germany invasion. He then collaborated with the enemy. I think his treason trial and then the commuting of the death sentence by Sir Ego the Great was appropriate.

[Blademaster]

To be fair, everybody thought the Maginot Line was impregnable and never thought about the invasion route through Belgium. They assumed that Belgium would halt the invasion by Germans trading space away for time and giving the French -British led force enough time to manuever to meet the threat. Also keep in mind, Petain didn't really have large control over the forces arrayed in the east against Germany. He had to take British interests and demands in consideration.

As for collaborating with the enemy, he was not given a choice since refusal would have result in France being ended up like Poland and generations ruined. Moreover, the people of France elected him to negotiate with Germany and work with Germany. In 1943, Petain had actually lost control over the administration and was being used as a front by Leval. He was actually senile at that time.

[Mihais]

Petain played a too limited role in the preparation for defense.IIRC he served as defense minister until 1938.There was no way for him to change the defense policy.
So my vote is a that he was a scapegoat .

[dalem]

Definitely a collaborator, most probably fits the definiteion of the word "traitor". Overly harsh on my part? Well, that why you don't agree to be the head of Vichy France - people get all the wrong ideas about your loyalties.

-dale

[YoungIndia]

I think he was placed in an untenable position. I think he was trying to save France from Nazi Germany and so he took all the blame. He knew he was an old man and had very little years left so he became the scapegoat.

Just too many indefensible things.he hated the ideals of "liberty,equality and fraternity", collabration with the enemy, pro active participation in the holocaust, creation of the milice, abolition of democracy,bigoted measures against jews,gypsies,opposition to allies. why didn't he change sides when allies hit back in north africa or atleast opened the second front.

seems to have suffered a decline in the final phase of his life.gaulle said " the great petain died in 1925".


In the 90's,there was this famous trial of maurice papon who was in the vichy admin and continued to have top posts after ww2 for sending jews to the death trains.

[1979]

To be fair, everybody thought the Maginot Line was impregnable and never thought about the invasion route through Belgium. They assumed that Belgium would halt the invasion by Germans trading space away for time and giving the French -British led force enough time to manuever to meet the threat.

The Dyle option called for a rapid advance into Belgium while the belgian army retreats toward the KW line.
The idea was to quickly form a solid defence line from the Med to the North Sea using the manpower of France ,UK, Belgium and Holand to counterbalance the german infantry .
The escaut option would give the germans, Belgium and Holand on a plater .

[Officer of Engineers]

No scapegoat and a willing collaborator. Looking like Germany was going to win the war, he placed France in the best possible position he could to take advantage of a German victory. Turning the Republic into the State was in an effort to follow the German model, it was certainly not imposed from Germany. He only finally gave in to the inevitable title only when it looked like Germany was going to lose the war but by that time, he has cast his stone with the Germans.

[Blademaster]

But looking at Petain closely, it was very apparent that he was senile and he only went with Germany when it was apparent that the French army was in no shape to resist Germans and Germans were already out for blood.

Also visit this thread, Petain: Saviour or Villain? at another forum that talks about Petain. This is what one poster had to say about Petain.

"I'm not a Petain or Vichy fan, far from it, but facts are facts. For example Petain fired Laval and Laval came back in power only under German pressure.
Also the french intelligence and counter intelligence continued to work. There si several example of German spies that got captured in Lyon and were judged, convicted and the sentence executed (death) so fast that the only aswer the Vichy officials could give to the German was: oops sorry, should we send you back the corp ?
That was even worse for the German in noth Africa where the German and Italian armistice comitions were isolated. Anyone non acredited by officials who would have any relations with those comitions were first intimidated then emprisonned or even assassinated if they did not understand fast enough. The German and Italian armistice comitions were completely isolated and the colonial army could prepare and train to enter back in the war. (btw they were in facts deeply intoxicated by false informations since the only spies the Germans had in north Africa were in fact working for the french. see "Mes Camarades sont Mort" from Pierre Nord, a must read)
There is a reason why after the liberation of north Africa, the french army was so fast to be effective.
What our American and English friends have trouble to understand is that Vichy France was neutral in the war. The army chiefs recieved the order to fight any invasion wherever it comes from including the allies side. That's why there was combat in the Levan, Dakar and north Africa (though in north Africa there weren't much fierce as the Americans were seen more like liberators than agressors)
Like Pierre Nord, member of the french 2eme bureau said:
"after the armistice, we waited for orders. We didn't waited long. Not that we recieved them, but because we understood that they will never come"
That explain it all. Petain was old, senile and unresolved. There was no orders to resist nor there was orders to collaborate. That was up to individuals to prepare for the revenge for some, for more collaboration for others. As for the big chiefs, they were blinded by there loyalty to Petain and waited for orders to resume the fight that never came. Like Weygan, we can't say he is a traitor. Like most of the french he deeply hated the invader and was dreaming in the day the french army would resume war. But he did not do anything because he did not recieved orders. All what he did was to prepare the colonial army in case those orders come, witch is already a lot, and he did it well." [

[Albany Rifles]

He had his choices...and he made all of the wrong ones.

As head of the army and as defence minister he oversaw the stagnation and systemic unpreparedness of the French armed forces. France in 1940 was France of 1918 with very few exceptions. Now a lot of countries were guilty of this....but they weren't next store to Germany!

He may have agreed to serve as presidnet to save France...but he could have resigned rather than allow the the transportation of Jews and the formation of the Milice.

He ordered his forces worldwide to attack Allied forces and to support the Axis war effort.

Sir Ego the Great- Nice one Shek

[Mihais]

He served a few years as Defense Minister.All the real power was either in the hands of the Chief of Staff or in the hands of the politicians(budget&defense policy).Besides,the biggest problem of the French army in 1940 was Gamelin's operational mistakes.Not having a reserve,for the start.As the second part of the campaign showed,there was nothing wrong with the French fighting man.
My memory has plenty of faults,that's why I cannot remember attacks by the Vichy France on the Allies.The engagements were in the colonies,where French troops put a symbolic resistence against Gaullists&British(the deaths were real on both sides,but the Vichy troops had the potential to fight a lot harder).
The problem with the resignations is that sometimes bigger idiots take the place.Not to say that resigning wasn't the proper COA.But is easy for us 70 years later to make judgements.

[Bigfella]

My judgement doesn't rest on Petain's failings or otherwise during the pre-war period. The politics of French Defence were sufficiently Byzantine that I suspect there was plenty of blame to share about & more study than most of us are capable of making to determine where best to place it.

Petain's crime was collaboration. His crime was to remove France & her empire from the fight against Nazism. His crime was to actively assist the Nazi domination of his own nation. His crime was to actively assist the further prosecution of Nazi conquest. His crime was to head a puppet dictatorship over his own people. His crime was to assist in the holocaust. His crime was to turn the resources of the French Empire against the very nations who sought to free France from occupation. Most if not all of these crimes should probably have resulted in death. If not, life in prison.

Petain was compelled to do none of this. Indeed, other nations overrun by the Nazis continued the fight & provided valuable serivce. Even absent Metropolitain France the nation was more capable than Poland, Belgium, Norway or Holland of taking the fight to the Axis. Petain was a key figure in the choice not to do this. He chose his course. The fact that he was able to persuade himself that this was all somehow in the best interests of France is utterly meaningless. Using that defence Pol Pot gets a pass.

Petain was a hero once, but he undid all of that in 1940.

[Officer of Engineers]

Hitesh, reading all this through and through your links as well, there is a hell of alot of revisionism involved. The Colonial Army received no orders simply because Vichy France cannot trust their loyalty. ... and as events occurred, Paris was right. But that does not mean Petain was responsible, it only means that he did not forced the choice onto the French Colonial Army.

From somewhat personal experience, senile does not mean illogical thinking. Petain could have shorten the war when he knew he made the wrong decision. All he had to do was to mutter three simple words, "Vivre La France" but alas he did not ... and that was his ultimate failing. Three words that he failed to utter.

[YoungIndia]

But looking at Petain closely, it was very apparent that he was senile and he only went with Germany when it was apparent that the French army was in no shape to resist Germans and Germans were already out for blood..

Untrue.

Its true that the french army in france was getting routed fast. But there was a huge debate on whether to continue the fight from north africa or other colonies by withdrawing forces there and continue to resist.

according to Petain and co, france has been degraded by the values of liberal democracy.he was a ultra conservative who was more at ease with the authoritarian and racist values of the nazi regime. that says it all. one does n't have to look at anything else.

the dictatorship and the racist policies was imposed on his own initiative,.

Also visit this thread, Petain: Saviour or Villain?

hyperbole based on a flimsy basis.

some german spies were executed or caught.how does it make up for the asistance germany received in milking france? france contributed hugely to germany's economic output.Hundreds of french slave labourers were deported to germany and worked for germany's war effort. The milice was launched against the resistance and other opponents. Jews ,gypsises etc were eported with enthusiasm. anti semitic laws were repealed and racial policies initiated.

The nazi officials pretty much considered the vichy regime very helpful and supported them till the end of the war even in exile when allies advanced across france and germany.were they idiots to do so? that says it all.

That's huge collobration by any standards.

they did maintain relations with the united states. but its like fellow fascist franco following neutrality . relations with the british were strained because of the british assault on the french fleet when they surredered.Hence they resisted british at places like syria. americans worked out a deal with darlan for landing in north africa.

but the fact is germany benefited a lot and were happy with the vichy regime.

[Bigfella]

A question for the officers here that has always fascinated me. I have long been surprised by just how many senior French officers continued to serve Vichy. If your home nation faced an identical situation to France in 1940 & a government such as Vichy was formed: would you feel that your oath bound you to serve that government, or would you feel that by collaborating with the enemy the right to call on that oath had been broken? Just curious.