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  • #61
    The golden age of China is generally considered to be Song not Tang, especially in culture, trade, and other areas. It is a period that claim over 30% literacy rate. Tang looks impressive militarily, but it is Song that defines the "Chinese-ness" if you will.

    when time allows, you might want to read up on works by wang gungwu of Harvard. he deals in the "Chineseness" of Chinese and would totally shot down the notion of "The Chinese civilization did change over 4000 years"
    “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

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    • #62
      Also, if the Tang had any contact with the Europeans (which was minimal)

      Dude, look at the map of Tang

      Most of the foreigners who came to China during Tang dynasty were Turks, Uighurs, Tocharians, Sogdians, and the Jews in the north comparing to the Chams, Khmers, Javanese, and Singhalese who crowded the south. In both places, however, there were many Arabs, Persian, and Indians. The Iranian population must have been most important that the Tang government even had an office "of the Sarthavak" (literally, "of the Caravan Leader") to watch over their interests.
      The Exoticism in Tang (618-907)
      Tolerance in Foreign Faiths
      Tang emperors often prided themselves as patrons of all religions, including Buddhism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, Nestorianism, and Islam. China was opened to many pilgrims came here to preach. Song could be heard filtering out of a Nestorian Christian church from Syria. Five times a day the call to prayer rang out from the Muslim mosques serving Persian and Arab traders. At Daoist temples Chinese wives burned incense and in the Buddhist temples, the monks chanted sacred texts. There were abundant religious activities recorded during this time. The Mazdean temple in Ch'ang-an was rebuilt in 631; the Nestorians were honored by the erection of a church in 638; the Manichaeans proposed their doctrines to the court in 694.
      Also considered this when look at the military of Tang


      Chinese foreign policy to the north and west now had to deal with Turkic nomads, who were becoming the most dominant ethnic group in Central Asia.[58][59] To handle and avoid any threats posed by the Turks, the Sui government repaired fortifications and received their trade and tribute missions.[30] They sent royal princesses off to marry Turkic clan leaders, a total of four of them in 597, 599, 614, and 617. The Sui stirred trouble and conflict amongst ethnic groups against the Turks.[60][61] As early as the Sui Dynasty, the Turks had become a major militarized force employed by the Chinese. When the Khitans began raiding northeast China in 605, a Chinese general led 20,000 Turks against them, distributing Khitan livestock and women to the Turks as a reward.[3] On two occasions between 635 to 636, Tang royal princesses were married to Turk mercenaries or generals in Chinese service.[61] Throughout the Tang Dynasty until the end of 755, there were approximately ten Turkic generals serving under the Tang.[62][63] While most of the Tang army was made of fubing Chinese conscripts, the majority of the troops led by Turkic generals were of non-Chinese origin, campaigning largely in the western frontier where the presence of fubing troops was low.[64] Some "Turkic" troops were nomadisized Han Chinese, a desinicized people.[65]
      Last edited by xinhui; 04 Apr 12,, 06:51.
      “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

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      • #63
        To add to Andy's point. Chinese culture and practices IS NOT slow in adopting things and moves like a glacier. It was full of upheavals, collapses, sudden rises, and as dramatic and every bit as traumatic as the Fall of Rome and the 100 Years War. When you have an entire cities butchered as late as the 1940s and earth quakes that literally to tossed roads from one side of the mountain to the other, there is absolutely nothing glacial about the changes faced by the people.

        The Tai Ping Rebellion saw the biggest blood letting in human history. The Cultural Revolution brainwashed an entire generation and dismay the entire Chinese population from political upheaval that lasted to this day. The failure of the Tienanmen Square Uprising is a direct result of the backlash from the GPCR.

        For anyone who spouts otherwise has not studied Chinese history, has no grasp of the turning points in that history, nor the impact of various people in that history. There is no such thing as a non-pure Chinese dynasty. I have news for everyone. EVERY DYNASTY MADE A LASTING IMPACT in Chinese history. If for no other reason, it ended the previous dynasty and their practices. They are ALL CHINESE DYNASTIES, including the Yuan and the Qing, ESPECIALLY THE YUAN AND THE QING.

        As such, Mao Tse-Tung had made a lasting impact and so has Zhou En-Lai and Deng Xia Peng. These are not small men making small changes in Chinese history. These were men who defined 20 Century China and for Deng, he single handily dragged China from the 19th Century into the 20th Century and kicked her butt into the 21st Century. In half a lifetime, Deng Xia Peng not only put a chicken in every pot but also a sink and refrigerator in every kitchen and almost a TV in every house.

        That alone made far more impact that your internet and kids learning to spout BS.

        THAT IS NOT GLACIAL. THAT IS THE BIGGEST UPHEAVAL EVER IN CHINESE HISTORY.

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        • #64
          I still do not disagree with you.

          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
          To add to Andy's point. Chinese culture and practices IS NOT slow in adopting things and moves like a glacier. It was full of upheavals, collapses, sudden rises, and as dramatic and every bit as traumatic as the Fall of Rome and the 100 Years War. When you have an entire cities butchered as late as the 1940s and earth quakes that literally to tossed roads from one side of the mountain to the other, there is absolutely nothing glacial about the changes faced by the people.
          Which makes them all the more determined to hold on to their ancestral ways as much as possible. Still, like most other human beings, the Chinese are usually open minded enough to adopt new ideas that show promise. It's a bit like weiqi, where the player has to make the most of the potential offered not only by the moves he made, but also by those of his opponent.

          The Tai Ping Rebellion saw the biggest blood letting in human history. The Cultural Revolution brainwashed an entire generation and dismay the entire Chinese population from political upheaval that lasted to this day. The failure of the Tienanmen Square Uprising is a direct result of the backlash from the GPCR.
          It is events like these that make Chinese historical experience worth studying. As well, the Cultural Revolution does remind me of how previous succeeding dynasties would abolish the practices of the previous ones, often violently. In this respect Mao was just repeating a common custom of Chinese rulers. Let's recall that when the Mongols invaded China many thousands were killed and entire cities were razed to the ground.

          As for why the Tian'anmen Square Uprising failed, I was once told that US news media coverage of the event had a role to play, albeit a minor one. A few Politburo members might've thought that the US was trying to foment a revolution in China and that this event was just the beginning. Do you believe that the Tian'anmen Square Uprising could've succeeded and, if so, what conditions would've had to be in place beforehand for success to be achieved?

          For anyone who spouts otherwise has not studied Chinese history, has no grasp of the turning points in that history, nor the impact of various people in that history. There is no such thing as a non-pure Chinese dynasty. I have news for everyone. EVERY DYNASTY MADE A LASTING IMPACT in Chinese history. If for no other reason, it ended the previous dynasty and their practices. They are ALL CHINESE DYNASTIES, including the Yuan and the Qing, ESPECIALLY THE YUAN AND THE QING.
          Both of these arose as result of foreign invasion and occupation. (The others arose either through civil war, abdication, or lack of an heir to the throne.) Thus, to make their dynasties last, the rulers had to show that they still respected Chinese culture and customs despite being non-Chinese themselves. Of course the Yuan rulers were not going to impose Mongolian ways on the people, nor the Qing rulers Manchu ones. Eventually both of them were Sinicized. In the case of the Qing, as the dynasty progressed more and more court officials communicated in Chinese instead of Manchu. In the end hardly anyone spoke Manchu in the court.

          Yes, every dynasty did make a lasting impact, but Chinese culture is like a mountain where, even if a boulder-sized chunk falls off every now and then, it takes a long time for it to change shape. Even in our age of rapid and sudden change, those that inherit a millennia-old culture like that of China, Ancient Rome, or even the Incas do not abandon it on a whim, and sometimes not even at gunpoint.

          As such, Mao Tse-Tung had made a lasting impact and so has Zhou En-Lai and Deng Xia Peng. These are not small men making small changes in Chinese history. These were men who defined 20 Century China and for Deng, he single handily dragged China from the 19th Century into the 20th Century and kicked her butt into the 21st Century. In half a lifetime, Deng Xia Peng not only put a chicken in every pot but also a sink and refrigerator in every kitchen and almost a TV in every house.

          That alone made far more impact that your internet and kids learning to spout BS.

          THAT IS NOT GLACIAL. THAT IS THE BIGGEST UPHEAVAL EVER IN CHINESE HISTORY.
          And the business end of the upheaval allows tens of millions of Chinese to enjoy 4G internet on their iPhones and top quality coffee at Starbucks China is currently undergoing even greater upheaval than what occurred in the last century and nobody's firing an AK-47.

          I should've mentioned this earlier, but your scope of understanding on this issue far exceeds mine. I'm enjoying the exchange thus far, despite the defiant tone of this post:)

          I try to understand the forces behind the history, not just the events themselves. At least this way I can draw a connection between back then and right now. As well, I'm sure that the leaders you just mentioned had a good understanding of historical events and how these affected the environment in which they implemented their policy.

          Before continuing, I wonder how Deng would've fared if he had to govern today's USA as President. It would've been nice to see how he would've handled the current state of the US economy and the War on Terror. At least in the Chinese national government of the late 1970's there wasn't a lame duck Congress to hold things up. Of course there was the Gang of Four, but they soon went behind bars.

          Deng Xiaoping and the other greats are just warp threads in the long tapestry that is Chinese history. Even so, these warp threads have strongly influenced the formation of the weft surrounding them. Great men in China go much farther back than just the ones mentioned above. Perhaps the greatest achievement of the Chinese Communist Party is the modernization of China - as forcibly as it came about. A small man (Deng) with big dreams unified a nation and its effects are still being felt even today.

          On the side, I post everything here in full awareness that it is open to rebuke. I'm no historian, so nothing here will break even a goldfinch's jaw.

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          • #65
            By "Europeans" I meant those living in Western and Central Europe at the time. It is possible that those in the Tang court have had some idea of them, but the Europeans themselves had to go through the Arabs and Persians to do any trade along the Silk Road. Apart from Marco Polo's travels to the East and contacts with the Mongols in Eastern Europe during the 13th century, the Europeans did not contact the Chinese directly until the Age of Exploration (16th and 17th centuries AD).

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            • #66
              Originally posted by xinhui View Post
              The golden age of China is generally considered to be Song not Tang, especially in culture, trade, and other areas. It is a period that claim over 30% literacy rate. Tang looks impressive militarily, but it is Song that defines the "Chinese-ness" if you will.
              I have read some impressive things about the Tang. In terms of cultural sophistication it almost puts a developed country like the US to shame (- -) The Japanese tea ceremony is modeled on the tea ceremony practiced in China during the Song Dynasty. It is said that powdered green tea leaf was popular at the time in China.

              when time allows, you might want to read up on works by wang gungwu of Harvard. he deals in the "Chineseness" of Chinese and would totally shot down the notion of "The Chinese civilization did change over 4000 years"
              Which work do you recommend? I'll look for that one first.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Crocodylus View Post
                By "Europeans" I meant those living in Western and Central Europe at the time. It is possible that those in the Tang court have had some idea of them, but the Europeans themselves had to go through the Arabs and Persians to do any trade along the Silk Road. Apart from Marco Polo's travels to the East and contacts with the Mongols in Eastern Europe during the 13th century, the Europeans did not contact the Chinese directly until the Age of Exploration (16th and 17th centuries AD).
                There I think you are off by a few hundred years by the time Marco Polo reached China, two dynasties has pasted. Europe was such a backwater during the period of Tang, even contract was made there no no one worthy to trade with. I think you were thinking about Ming which is yet another later dynasty.

                I used the Arabs and Persians as references for Tang because there was where the civilization was happening during that time. Why go all the way to see the Franks?
                “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

                Comment


                • #68
                  Yes, every dynasty did make a lasting impact, but Chinese culture is like a mountain where, even if a boulder-sized chunk falls off every now and then, it takes a long time for it to change shape. Even in our age of rapid and sudden change, those that inherit a millennia-old culture like that of China, Ancient Rome, or even the Incas do not abandon it on a whim, and sometimes not even at gunpoint.
                  Seriously, it is highly Recommended that you don't make such a generalization -- case-in-point, after only spectated from the Mainland for 30 years, people in Guangzhou, both Cantonese speaking people mind you, were shocked to see the alienation when they visited HongKong for the first time in the early 1980s.

                  Rest of your post was just red herring.
                  “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Crocodylus View Post
                    I have read some impressive things about the Tang. In terms of cultural sophistication it almost puts a developed country like the US to shame (- -) The Japanese tea ceremony is modeled on the tea ceremony practiced in China during the Song Dynasty. It is said that powdered green tea leaf was popular at the time in China.

                    Which work do you recommend? I'll look for that one first.
                    In the late 1980s, under the sponsorship of Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew, a bunch of excellent papers and conferences took place in HongKong, China, Singapore and Taiwan to examine the "Chineseness of Chinese" and here is one. I would not waste time to read them all, as they are highly academic. Those were the months I can't get back -- I'd rather be drinking

                    Amazon.com: The Chineseness of China: Selected Essays (9780195853322): Wang Gungwu: Books

                    Book Description
                    Publication Date: July 16, 1992
                    The fifteen essays collected in this volume--which move from the T'ang and Sung dynasties to the present day--represent some of the author's efforts to learn about China from afar, as someone of Chinese heritage born and raised outside the country. Using the history and cultural attitudes, the author also shows the changing perspectives of how the Chinese view their present and their past during the past three decades.
                    What you need to know -- everyone agreed that the Chineseness of Chinese is at anything but static.
                    Last edited by xinhui; 09 Apr 12,, 03:09.
                    “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

                    Comment


                    • #70


                      Tang's territory at the regime of Li Longji .
                      It's edited by Japanese.I think it's a little exaggerated.You know,Japan admire the Tang Empire.

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                      • #71



                        This is Song Dynasty.much smaller than Tang' peakdeness

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                        • #72
                          Song dynasty's economy is the best in ancient Chinese history,and great development in technology,culture,ideology.
                          Indeed,Song has vigosor military ability at that time .Excellent outfit ,perfect supply system ,advanced combat guidance.
                          But ofeten interfered by politican.Civilian post control the military,and they always wanted to show their combat command ability(In fact,they are just engaged in
                          theorizing)
                          That's one reason why always been humiliated by nomadic people

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Z timezone View Post


                            Tang's territory at the regime of Li Longji .
                            It's edited by Japanese.I think it's a little exaggerated.You know,Japan admire the Tang Empire.
                            You believe this shit?

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                              You believe this shit?
                              Do you know the meaning of "a little exaggerated"?

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                                You believe this shit?
                                OK.let me show something more reliable

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