An alternative American Cold War Strategy

[astralis]

aussie,

So far, there's been an avoidance of the psychological profiles of American policy-makers in this timeframe. These were men largely shaped by W.W.I, post W.W.I Europe (to include the rise of a Leninist Soviet Union), an epic global economic collapse and, later, W.W.II.

in addition to S-2's point above, i'd like to say that this was also true for british policymakers (so much for the cross-cultural work). in fact, the brits if anything were even more dismissive of the iranians and other middle easterners, which was true for the west as a whole.

and why not? in WW2, the brits, with an absolute minimum effort, defeated iraq and iran in approximately a month, despite poor odds. in the suez crisis, the tripartite alliance of second-rate powers beat the crap out of egypt with less than 250 dead all told.

of course what the minority and what you outline turned out to be a far better long-term strategy, but during the time most policymakers were interested in what they saw as an easy, cheap, short-term fix.

it took the malayan insurgency, the mau-mau uprising, algeria, and vietnam to really hammer into the heads of western decisionmakers that guerrilla warfare married to nationalism, cheap explosives, and AK-47s made imperial adventures expensive.

[zraver]

it took the malayan insurgency, the mau-mau uprising, algeria, and vietnam to really hammer into the heads of western decisionmakers that guerrilla warfare married to nationalism, cheap explosives, and AK-47s made imperial adventures expensive.

But it should not have taken that long. WWII showed what an insurgency armed with automatic weapons and explosives could do.

[Mihais]

'' it took the malayan insurgency, the mau-mau uprising, algeria, and vietnam ''

Incidentally 3 military victories for the Westerners.
Of course hindsight is 10/10.Personally I doubt the US could have acted much differently given the circumstances.But the USSR could(theoretically at least).That makes for an interesting setup.Because the Soviet interventions(even the successful ones)turned to be economic failures.They played a no small part in the eventual demise of Soviet economy.

[Bigfella]

'' it took the malayan insurgency, the mau-mau uprising, algeria, and vietnam ''

Incidentally 3 military victories for the Westerners.

If the price of the military 'victory' is that the other side kicks you out & takes over then you have just wasted a lot of time, money & human lives. I count 1 from 4. I'm sure Kenyatta, Ben Bella & Le Duan (or Ho Chi Minh for that matter) would have agreed.

There were a lot of lessons to be learned from the 1 victory, but they couldn't always be tranferred to other conflicts. The one that was frequently not transferred was that you have to win the politics for the military actions to mean anything.

[Mihais]

Agreed with what you say.Even with your score.But still,the Western powers ''choosed'' to lose(for a gazillion of reasons).It wasn't predetermined.
I was merely challenging the idea that the insurgents ''won'' in the field.They were in fact offered the victory on a plate.But a victory is a victory and political victory is the one that matters in the end.That's a pattern that can be observed on every African ''liberation'' war that I can think of right now.SE Asia &Latin America are different,of course.

[S2]

Mihais Reply

"...political victory is the one that matters in the end."

Military victory only matters when you stomp the livin' sh!t out of your enemy leaving them prostrate with their throats bared before you.

Quickly becoming a lost art...

[Bigfella]

[QUOTE=Mihais;739833]

Agreed with what you say.Even with your score.But still,the Western powers ''choosed'' to lose(for a gazillion of reasons).It wasn't predetermined.

Nothing is predetermined, but some things are considerably more likely outcomes than others. Sometimes this is only obvious in retrospect.

I was merely challenging the idea that the insurgents ''won'' in the field.They were in fact offered the victory on a plate.But a victory is a victory and political victory is the one that matters in the end.That's a pattern that can be observed on every African ''liberation'' war that I can think of right now.SE Asia &Latin America are different,of course.

They weren't 'offered' anything on a plate. They fought damned hard for it. That hard fighting made it politically impossible for the powers involved to continue. They exacted a military price to obtain a political victory & died in huge numbers to do so. By focussing so heavily on the 'choices' the Western powers had you ignore the ways in which their opponents worked hard & paid in blood to constrain those choices & channel them toward a particular outcome.

Divorcing 'the field' from its broader context might be fascinating for students of combat tactics, but is meaningless for students of history.

[Bigfella]

"...political victory is the one that matters in the end."

Military victory only matters when you stomp the livin' sh!t out of your enemy leaving them prostrate with their throats bared before you.

Quickly becoming a lost art...

Yes, but in order to do this you usually need to meet certain political conditions.

[S2]

Bigfella Reply

"Yes, but in order to do this you usually need to meet certain political conditions."

Spoilsport...

[Bigfella]

"Yes, but in order to do this you usually need to meet certain political conditions."

Spoilsport...

I know, I know, ya wanna stomp somebody.

The way things is shapin' up you may yet get your wish. Bush minor sorta messed things up with the whole 'oops, no WMD' war in Iraq, but so many folks are doing so much extraordinarily dumb stuff that one of them might just get a good kicking. Feel better?;)

[bigross86]

Looks like Israel and Turkey might be fixing on a playdate. Wanna come visit?

[Bigfella]

Looks like Israel and Turkey might be fixing on a playdate. Wanna come visit?

It'll blow over, but thanks for the offer.;)

[S2]

Bigfella Reply

"Bush minor sorta messed things up with the whole 'oops, no WMD' war in Iraq"



Now Iraqis are free to choose whom they'll kill.

[Mihais]

This anti American&anti-imperialist (not the ole French&British variants,of which I'm a fan,which are also a subject of the thread) tells you,good sir,that if anyone else would have been in your shoes,WMD's would have been found in Iraq.Any sort of WMD's and in any numbers needed.

I still don't get why did your Adm. bothered with that kind of sh!t.

Here's one for ya:

<object style="height: 344px; width: 425px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/mK2T2aPooy4"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/mK2T2aPooy4" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></object>

[Mihais]

This anti American&anti-imperialist (not the ole French&British variants,of which I'm a fan,which are also a subject of the thread) tells you,good sir,that if anyone else would have been in your shoes,WMD's would have been found in Iraq.Any sort of WMD's and in any numbers needed.

I still don't get why did your Adm. bothered with that kind of sh!t.

Here's one for ya:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK2T2aPooy4