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  • suddenly on the front burner

    FOXNews.com - U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan

    the M4 debate rekindled
    CADPIPE

  • #2
    Although I agree with the Generals assessment, I do not think this will get any traction. The M-16/5.56x45 has too many friends in high places.
    Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

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    • #3
      At first I used a regular M-16A1 with collapsible stock and a shortened barrel. When I was designated the company sharpshooter, I started out with an M-16A2E3, and then to an M-4A1.

      Using the M-4 and SS109 bullets I managed to hit a head target at 527 meters (1731 feet) with a strong wind blowing. I never had any problems with my M-4.
      Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

      Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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      • #4
        A couple things misleading about this story...

        An Army study found that the 5.56mm bullets fired from the M4s don’t retain enough velocity past 1,000 feet to kill an enemy. In Afghanistan, forces are often up to 2,500 feet apart.
        What? The 5.56 can defiently go fast enough even out of a 14.5 inch barrel to kill someone at 300 meters and beyond. It's not going to be as accurate or have as much hitting power as a 20 inch barrel but that's to be expected. For me a non-lethal velocity would have a bullet moving so slow that it wouldn't penetrate the body.

        Scales said the M4 is “unsuitable” for Afghan terrain and “notoriously unreliable” in the first place. The Army Times reported on an Army weapons test three years ago that found the M4 performed worse than three other newer carbines when subjected to an “extreme dust test.”
        That "extreme dust test" back when they tested the XM8 and the HK416 and the SCAR-L is always referenced but forgets to ever mention the fact that the M4 was given zero lubrication during those trials and there were two tests one in the fall and one in the summer which at it's best jammed only 307 times and at it's worst jammed 882 times. Which pumping 60 000 rounds into a rifle that was never designed for overt combat and suffering only around 307 jams most being minor is pretty damn good. The weapons being tested against bear out the XM8 as the best suffering 200 less jams than the M4. However people forget that replacing the M4 with the XM8 would be the biggest logistical nightmare in military history. The XM8 uses different receivers, different parts, and especially different magazines. So improving the failure rate from 0.5% at it's best to 0.2% for the XM8 isn't really worth the cost and is a nominal reliability difference at best. Most soldiers are not going to pump out 6000 (it was a total of 10 rifles each) round out of a weapon at a consistent rate that is not optimized for full auto fire and uses a system more meant for single shot accuracy to really see the difference between the reliability of a well maintained M4 and an improved counterpart. Not only that, who carries over 1500 rounds on their person on a day to day basis? It was an extreme test that demanded far more from the rifle than it is expected to do.

        The Taliban are meanwhile using heavier bullets that allow them to fire at U.S. and NATO troops from distances that are out of range of the M4.
        Uh... Yeah and these 7.62 bullets are most likely comming out of AK's that are not of Arsenal or even Century Arms quality giving out about 3-6 MOA. The Soviet bullet moves way to slow to effectively out distance a 5.56. If you look at Nutnfancy's AK vs AR video he can show you balistics cards that basically bear out that the AK's are a <300m weapon and that's being generous.

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        • #5
          For what it is, the M4 is just fine; no, it probably doesn't have the range of a 7.62 round, but it doesn't make sense to change over to an entirely new weapons system simply because of the situation in one theater. If it's such a problem, then maybe issue more M240's to the squads in A-stan, or have the AR trade his M249 for a 240 (though this would complicate logistics a bit). IIRC, Ranger squads are supposed to be getting the new SCAR-L's & H's this year; the H's should take care of the range problem.
          "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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          • #6
            Interesting...AK is famous for reliability, not accuracy. Spray and pray is not a legitimate tactic if you want to actually win a fight. It works sometimes...

            How about phasing out worn out M4 upper receivers and replace them with piston driven version? Would that increase reliability at a reasonable cost?
            "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by bigross86 View Post

              Using the M-4 and SS109 bullets I managed to hit a head target at 527 meters (1731 feet) with a strong wind blowing.
              "Nice shootin, Tex".;)
              Reddite igitur quae sunt Caesaris Caesari et quae sunt Dei Deo
              (Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's)

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              • #8
                I was cheating a bit. It was night and I had a 4x starlight scope. I still set the company record for personal weapon. The record for hits with a 120mm are quite a bit further than 527 meters...
                Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by roffelskates View Post
                  Uh... Yeah and these 7.62 bullets are most likely comming out of AK's that are not of Arsenal or even Century Arms quality giving out about 3-6 MOA.
                  To my knowledge, those 7.62mm bullets the Taliban are firing come from old .303 Lee-Enfields, Mosin-Nagant 91/30s and Romanian PSLs. Sub-2-MOA stuff even with crappy maintenance.

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                  • #10
                    I read the article yesterday, and found it to have no new ground breaking information.

                    The M4 system is fine. Proper maintenance and scheduled parts replacement (WHAT? Weapons internals have a limited life cycle?!?) does wonders. So does some proper lubrication.

                    And I'm not talking about range use, I'm talking about real out-in-the-sh1t military use.
                    In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
                    The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                      Interesting...AK is famous for reliability, not accuracy. Spray and pray is not a legitimate tactic if you want to actually win a fight. It works sometimes...

                      How about phasing out worn out M4 upper receivers and replace them with piston driven version? Would that increase reliability at a reasonable cost?
                      This would be the only feasible solution, if they would replace the system at all. The M4 is fine, all it requires is some decent maintenance. Are there better weapons out there? Yes. Does it require replacement with those weapons? No.
                      "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                        Interesting...AK is famous for reliability, not accuracy. Spray and pray is not a legitimate tactic if you want to actually win a fight. It works sometimes...
                        When you have a lot of tanks, arty and warm bodies to spare!

                        Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
                        At first I used a regular M-16A1 with collapsible stock and a shortened barrel. When I was designated the company sharpshooter, I started out with an M-16A2E3, and then to an M-4A1.

                        Using the M-4 and SS109 bullets I managed to hit a head target at 527 meters (1731 feet) with a strong wind blowing. I never had any problems with my M-4.
                        Shek's sergeant did somewhat less well, knocking down silhouette targets at 400 meters at a range with a dot site. :-)

                        Originally posted by kato View Post
                        To my knowledge, those 7.62mm bullets the Taliban are firing come from old .303 Lee-Enfields, Mosin-Nagant 91/30s and Romanian PSLs. Sub-2-MOA stuff even with crappy maintenance.
                        PKMs and Dragonovs too, from what I've heard. Lots of crew-served stuff firing full powered rifle cartridges.

                        A couple things misleading about this story...

                        Quote:
                        An Army study found that the 5.56mm bullets fired from the M4s don’t retain enough velocity past 1,000 feet to kill an enemy. In Afghanistan, forces are often up to 2,500 feet apart.
                        What? The 5.56 can defiently go fast enough even out of a 14.5 inch barrel to kill someone at 300 meters and beyond. It's not going to be as accurate or have as much hitting power as a 20 inch barrel but that's to be expected. For me a non-lethal velocity would have a bullet moving so slow that it wouldn't penetrate the body.
                        Fox raised a huge BS flag with that statement. One folk from PS.com claimed to have nailed Iraqis during ODS with his CAR-15. M-4 lacked the desirable tissue damage at long range but a bullet that can pierce a steel helmet at 600 meters should not have a trouble killing mere people.

                        I've read about 17-18 century duels with smallswords and it's not uncommon for the duelists to run each other through five, six times until someone stabbed his opponent in the chest. Then the victim goes rag doll and the fight declared finished. I have to wonder if that's the same deal with 5.56mm from a shorter barrel at extended ranges.

                        I have to wonder, if a 20 in. M-16 with a collapsible stock rather than the M-4 should've been issued as the standard infantry weapon.
                        Last edited by Triple C; 29 May 10,, 02:47.
                        All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                        -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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                        • #13
                          I guess this is what happens when you issue front line troops a carbine instead of a battle rifle .

                          Tony
                          Yet another ex-tankie of 1 RTR origin.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by toemag View Post
                            I guess this is what happens when you issue front line troops a carbine instead of a battle rifle .

                            Tony
                            BINGO!!!!

                            I'll take my M21 or an M14 anyday. The M16 and all its variants where NOT a combat rifle IMO. I did use a CAR-15 for a stalk rifle and I could hit targets nicely at 500 or 600m with my M16. But there is a reason that the AR had what is referred to as "a maximum effective range" of 300m for so many years. Its because thats as far as it could cause any real damage on a soft target. Put on all a little armor of thick clothing and you are SOL at 600m. We used to call that "harrassing fire" when it was that far out.

                            On the other hand, my 21 could punch your ticket at 1200m and still rock and roll with a push of the thumb switch.;)

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                            • #15
                              What's your thoughts on the new Bullpups out there, like the IMI Tavor? Carbine size with a rifle muzzle velocity.
                              Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                              Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                              Comment

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