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Iowa class would sink straight down!

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  • Iowa class would sink straight down!

    I read that the way the Sodak/Iowa machinery spaces were subdivided into eight separate

    compartments including nine major watertight transverse bulkheads and long anti-torpedo

    longitudinal bulkheads along the sides, so that even the unluckiest of torpedo hits (one

    damaging a lateral bulkhead separating two compartments) would flood only one-fourth of the

    power plant. Even then with just four boilers operating an Iowa could sail at 27.5 knots



    It looks in photo that each machinery compartment goes all the way from port to starboard with no longitudinal bulkheads in between, "Broadway" running over the centerline............
    If so, then a torpedo hit would flood evenly across the width of an Iowa and not cause listing to starboard or port, and less chance of lolling due to a negative GM?
    Wouldnt that mean that the chances for an Sodak/Iowa to capsize from torpedo hits on one side much less likely than say a Montanas much more subdivided compartment system?
    If one or two of those compartments flooded wouldnt a Sodak/Iowa sink slowly down and not list?
    And finally If one, two or more of those immense compartments flooded would a Sodak/Iowa upper compartments bouyancy be able to keep her afloat?

    Any thoughts..........

  • #2
    The Iowas were a maze of trim and ballast tanks from stem to stern. So well trained damage control crews and a chief engineer that can divide by 35 can keep her at level trim ------ but only in glassy calm water and the ship does not make any right or left turns.

    Any seaway that would list the ship or any turn that would heel the ship would drain all of that flooded water off to the lee side of the hull. Getting her level again requires pumping out water on one side and bringing on water on the other side ----- FAST.

    And any flooding fore or aft of amidships will seriously affect longitudinal trim, even with sufficient ballast tanks. That was a problem with Bismarck in that it had so much trim down by the bow after Prince of Wales drilled a hole through its unarmored fuel tanks, it couldn't take on enough trim ballast aft to level out and get back up to speed.

    On an Iowa, flooding of main machinery compartments in section B wouldn't be as bad as they are much further aft than the forward end of Section A (with Section C still undamaged).

    Yet, she could still take multiple hits and probably stay afloat. But that is just hopeful conjecture as it depends entirely of WHAT is hitting her, WHERE those what's are hitting and HOW MANY hits is she getting.

    We can design for the absolute worse case scenario where the ship would probably never sink. But our technology of what to build her out of and how to build it may be a tad lacking. Worst of all, Congress will only give you enough money to build a Birchbark Canoe.
    Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

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    • #3
      It looks in photo that each machinery compartment goes all the way from port to starboard with no longitudinal bulkheads in between, "Broadway" running over the centerline............
      If so, then a torpedo hit would flood evenly across the width of an Iowa and not cause listing to starboard or port, and less chance of lolling due to a negative GM?
      Wouldnt that mean that the chances for an Sodak/Iowa to capsize from torpedo hits on one side much less likely than say a Montanas much more subdivided compartment system?
      If one or two of those compartments flooded wouldnt a Sodak/Iowa sink slowly down and not list?
      And finally If one, two or more of those immense compartments flooded would a Sodak/Iowa upper compartments bouyancy be able to keep her afloat?

      Any thoughts..........


      *If I am reading you correctly, not so sure I am but each engine room and fireroom are seperated by bulkhead and watertight hatch a broadway. Looking from the bow towards the stern you have:

      From bow to stern (all Iowas) All seperated by watertight hatchways and bulkhead at Broadway:

      Boiler room one (Starboard side)
      Boiler room two (Port side)
      Main Engine room 1 (Starboard)
      Ships Service Turbo Generator (SSTG) 1&2 (Portside)
      Boiler room three (Starboard)
      Boiler room four (Port)
      Ships Service Turbo Generator (SSTG) 3&4 (Starboard)
      Main Engine room 4 (Port)
      Boiler room five (Starboard)
      Boiler room six (Port)
      Main Engine room two (Starboard) beyond outter bulkhead *Aux. Evaporators.
      Ships Service Turbo Generator (SSTG) 5&6 (Portside)
      Boiler room seven (Starboard)
      Boiler room eight (Port)
      Ships Service Turbo Generator (SSTG) 7&8 (Starboard)
      Main Engine room three (Port)

      *This dont include all other spaces such as Gun Plot, Aft Plot, Aft Steering, Gyro room, Aux diesel spaces, 5" mags and all other spaces located off Broadway.

      Notice the machinery layout, Odds (Boilers,Engines and SSTG) to Starboard and Evens to Port, same as her compartment numbering systems and secondary (5" gun mounts).

      Damage could be contained by watertight hatch on both sides of Broadway and then on Broadway itself if need be by sealing the manway escape scuttles and the compartment Broadway proper between major frames.

      When designed as you can see above, the Engine rooms, Boiler rooms and SSTG rooms were offset from one another so that even if all torpedoes were to hit one side, (and damage control was vigil) theorectically you would still have half of the powerplant, Engines (two shafts) and SSTG power for the ship. Shafts one (S) and four (P) (outters) could be damaged you would still have shafts 2 (S) and 3 (P) the inner two for main proplusion.

      When they were designed they were designed with damage control and survival in mind, And not overly complicated such as Bismarck and Yamato (Yamato was detailed) were. Lessons and knowledge gleened from Pearl's attack no doubt contributed to this.
      Last edited by Dreadnought; 23 May 10,, 01:11.
      Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

      Comment


      • #4
        We are looking at the state of the art in a commissioned battleship design. The USN also did a fine job of preventing the enemy from inflicting the kind of damage that the Germans and Japanese could only accept with reasonable certainty. That machinery is a considerable distance from the hull, and with the armor, subdivision and redundancy in this design, I don't think they were very likely to be sunk by the forces the enemy could bring to bear in WWII. The wide beam of the Montana's would have been a nice improvement, I would have stayed with the Iowa machinery layout if I was running BuShips. Still there is no practical solution for rotten luck and cummulative missfortune -- or nuclear tipped torpedoes hitting a ship.
        sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
        If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

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        • #5
          [QUOTE=If I am reading you correctly, not so sure I am but each engine room and fireroom are seperated by bulkhead and watertight hatch a broadway. Looking from the bow towards the stern you have:
          From bow to stern (all Iowas) All seperated by watertight hatchways and bulkhead at Broadway:[QUOTE

          Hey Dred I was basically asking if there was any longitudinal bulkhead separating lets say...... Boiler room one (Starboard side) from Boiler room two (Port side) or was it open all the way from port to starboard as the pictures seem to suggest before broadway was placed over it and blocked the view

          And if so the issue of engine or boiler rooms flooding on a Montana that ship takes on a sharp list in the direction of the flooding which only counter-flooding can alleviate. Transverse bulkheads on an Iowa would seem to be a better deal as this at least spreads the flooding across the width of the ship and helps to prevent capsize.

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          • #6
            Dreadnaught:

            Oh dear. I hate to be a spoil sport but let's take another look at your list:

            Boiler room one (Starboard side)
            Boiler room two (Port side)
            Main Engine room 1 (Starboard)
            Ships Service Turbo Generator (SSTG) 1&2 (Portside)
            Boiler room three (Starboard)
            Boiler room four (Port)
            Ships Service Turbo Generator (SSTG) 3&4 (Starboard)
            Main Engine room 4 (Port)
            Boiler room five (Starboard)
            Boiler room six (Port)
            Main Engine room two (Starboard) beyond outter bulkhead *Aux. Evaporators.
            Ships Service Turbo Generator (SSTG) 5&6 (Portside)
            Boiler room seven (Starboard)
            Boiler room eight (Port)
            Ships Service Turbo Generator (SSTG) 7&8 (Starboard)
            Main Engine room three (Port)


            From the 3rd deck down you can delete Port and Starboard. Access to each boiler room is on the port and starboard bulkheads of Broadway but the entire boiler room runs the full width of the space from Splinter deck (30-inches below 2nd deck) to 3rd bottom between holding bulkheads 4 P&S.

            There is not longitudinal separating bulkheads between port and starboard boilers.

            Same for the engine rooms but the 3rd deck is their overhead and again they go all the way down to the 3rd bottom and all the way across between holding bulkheads 4 P&S.

            Spaces ON the 3rd deck are actually BETWEEN the fireroom (boiler room) bulkheads that include the 5"/38 magazines, aft main battery plot, aft secondary battery plot, a radio room and (since modernization) two Air Conditioning Machinery rooms with three 125 ton duplex A/C units EACH.

            However, it can be argued that if we had a centerline bulkhead that it would be detrimental to the survivability of the ship (besides being in the way of critical machinery and piping). Some have theorized that the sinking of the IJN Shinano (built on a Yamato hull) was easier than expected because the centerline bulkhead prevented "natural" counter-flooding (her regular counter-flooding pumps had not been installed yet).

            Believe me, I've crawled and climbed around every main machinery space on all four Iowas and have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about.
            Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by RustyBattleship View Post
              Dreadnaught:

              Oh dear. I hate to be a spoil sport but let's take another look at your list:

              Boiler room one (Starboard side)
              Boiler room two (Port side)
              Main Engine room 1 (Starboard)
              Ships Service Turbo Generator (SSTG) 1&2 (Portside)
              Boiler room three (Starboard)
              Boiler room four (Port)
              Ships Service Turbo Generator (SSTG) 3&4 (Starboard)
              Main Engine room 4 (Port)
              Boiler room five (Starboard)
              Boiler room six (Port)
              Main Engine room two (Starboard) beyond outter bulkhead *Aux. Evaporators.
              Ships Service Turbo Generator (SSTG) 5&6 (Portside)
              Boiler room seven (Starboard)
              Boiler room eight (Port)
              Ships Service Turbo Generator (SSTG) 7&8 (Starboard)
              Main Engine room three (Port)


              From the 3rd deck down you can delete Port and Starboard. Access to each boiler room is on the port and starboard bulkheads of Broadway but the entire boiler room runs the full width of the space from Splinter deck (30-inches below 2nd deck) to 3rd bottom between holding bulkheads 4 P&S.

              *And I would agree.

              There is not longitudinal separating bulkheads between port and starboard boilers.

              *Under Broadway and down the scaffold I would most certainly agree, My mistake.

              *Sorry Rusty I was thinking of Broadway, not the space.

              Same for the engine rooms but the 3rd deck is their overhead and again they go all the way down to the 3rd bottom and all the way across between holding bulkheads 4 P&S.

              Spaces ON the 3rd deck are actually BETWEEN the fireroom (boiler room) bulkheads that include the 5"/38 magazines, aft main battery plot, aft secondary battery plot, a radio room and (since modernization) two Air Conditioning Machinery rooms with three 125 ton duplex A/C units EACH.

              * I would agree to this.

              However, it can be argued that if we had a centerline bulkhead that it would be detrimental to the survivability of the ship (besides being in the way of critical machinery and piping). Some have theorized that the sinking of the IJN Shinano (built on a Yamato hull) was easier than expected because the centerline bulkhead prevented "natural" counter-flooding (her regular counter-flooding pumps had not been installed yet).

              Believe me, I've crawled and climbed around every main machinery space on all four Iowas and have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about.
              Rusty, as always I would agree but perhaps we are reading the very same way but speaking in two different tounges. I would always differ to your reasoning and judgement as you have seen them throughout their lives long before me (Pre 1980's) althought I was aboard pre 1980's as well, If we dont speak the same language then please do give it up to lack of age and understanding of terms.

              From the reports I have read, When Shinano was sunk she was in no where near condition for damage control nor would she be truely considered ready for service, She was on sea trials with a limited crew and shipyard workers, they were rushing her into service to fufill the shortage of carriers Japan had. The US sub that took her out was lurking through intelligence and smartness. From what books and reports read, it was one hell of a kill of a capital ship and she went down ubber quickly. They took the opertune moment to strike and it paid well. Denying Japan a new carrier with very heavy armor late in the war when they were unprepared for such an instance in home waters.
              Last edited by Dreadnought; 23 May 10,, 07:18.
              Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hey Dred I was basically asking if there was any longitudinal bulkhead separating lets say...... Boiler room one (Starboard side) from Boiler room two (Port side) or was it open all the way from port to starboard as the pictures seem to suggest before broadway was placed over it and blocked the view

                Such as the point that Rusty raised in above posts. A diffacult answer that questions the point of origin, Under Broadway they are wide open but able to isolate at Broadway, You have to remember shaft alley is open down below for not only your shafts to run through but also open to be maintained among other equipment on the scaffold deck and her "belly". I would love to post pictures on this (I readily have) but have not for two specific reasons. The first is my own fault (copywriting a ghost image through them), the second ofcoarse I wont mention.
                Last edited by Dreadnought; 23 May 10,, 07:37.
                Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Great Illustration

                  [QUOTE=petsan;738319]I read that the way the Sodak/Iowa machinery spaces were subdivided into eight separate

                  This picture really helps my understanding of building a ship inside a bottle ;)

                  Or is that several boilers inside an Iowa BB

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                  • #10
                    Oooops! I am presuming that at the start of this thread "SODAK" meant South Dakota class.

                    Well, all of the comments following that were more intended for the Iowa class and North Carolina class. Their boiler rooms and engine rooms were in line with each other.

                    I forgot that the South Dakota class was designed to be a tad shorter so the boiler rooms were actually stacked on top of the engine rooms. Therefore references to flooding of a main machinery space is geometrically different.
                    Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

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