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Thread: From WikiLeaks, Collateral Murder

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roycerson View Post
    What if a guy saw an enemy combatant that turned out to be a soccer carpool?

    THIS guy had the number of guns WAY wrong. Didn't see ANY big expensive cameras and blew up the daycare bus.
    Doesn't make a difference if he saw one gun or 17. One gun is enough to make the group hostile. And you keep neglecting to mention the RPG that was being aimed at the Apache.

    You'll notice they clearly identified the weapons before requesting permission to engage.

    Day care bus? Don't editorialize. Stick to the facts
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by S-2 View Post
    No paranoia here. I just recognize self-serving sanctimony when I see it. Those engaged in its use in this instance do so to needlessly defame American troops. That makes them my enemy.

    Like you.
    Lol, you are so paranoid you can't even see that these sodiers dafamed themselves through their actions. And make me your "enemy" because I mentioned it.

  3. #63
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roycerson View Post
    What if a guy saw an enemy combatant that turned out to be a soccer carpool?
    Soccer carpool routinely carry weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roycerson View Post
    THIS guy had the number of guns WAY wrong. Didn't see ANY big expensive cameras and blew up the daycare bus.
    So now we have to not only identify the type of weapon, we need to give an accurate count as well. OK. Anything else you would like to see changed in ROE? Should we count the number of reloads carried by the combatants? The gun could be empty. How about actually spot them work the action of the gun? They could be props or drill rifles.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman817 View Post
    Lol, you are so paranoid you can't even see that these sodiers dafamed themselves through their actions. And make me your "enemy" because I mentioned it.
    How exactly did they defame themselves by your definition? Was it the shooting which was completely legal and fell within the boundaries of the ROE, or was it their talking on the radio that pisses you off?
    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

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  5. #65
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigross86 View Post
    How exactly did they defame themselves by your definition? Was it the shooting which was completely legal and fell within the boundaries of the ROE, or was it their talking on the radio that pisses you off?
    They defamed themselves by being American soldiers, of course.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  6. #66

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    Zraver Reply

    "Article 24. Medical personnel exclusively engaged in the search for, or the collection, transport or treatment of the wounded or sick, or in the prevention of disease, staff exclusively engaged in the administration of medical units and establishments, as well as chaplains attached to the armed forces, shall be respected and protected in all circumstances."

    I saw none of that. "Medical personnel"? Really? I saw an unmarked vehicle pull to the scene and attempt to remove a wounded combatant. I don't know that it was "exclusive" or if that vehicle held ammunition, arms and other combatants. I sure didn't see an aid bag or anything remotely resembling medical equipment.

    "Not killing everything that moves would be a good start."

    Snide and smarmy. Reads a tad flippant and short-sighted from here.

    "Y its to fcuking bad some hot shot Apache pilots broke the f'ing law by gunning down people obviously engaged in protected activities."

    "...hot shot..."?

    Aren't you the tough-guy now?

    "...broke the f'ing law..."

    I don't see that proven. Least by you.

    "Flippant short sighted remarks are little more than feel good justification for a crime."

    Nothing flippant in my observations. I see no crime. There's more than enough mitigation to make the absence of criminal intent or CONDUCT clear.

    "Implying that anyone who dissagrees with you hate America is just stupid."

    Not true. I'm not implying anything. However, I've little doubt that there are many whom disagree with me WHO ARE ENEMIES OF AMERICA. Others might more closely qualify as unwitting fools/tools. I think there are many here who are bent on absolving those at the scene responsibility for their own demise.

    "I am as patriotic as anyone, enlisted when I was 17 and never miss a vote. I've earned my right to call bvllshit, bvllshit."

    Get in line. Now if you'd only learn when to use it with accuracy you might have a case. You're no less but no more annointed to such a "right" as myself and I DON'T consider my view of the matter bullsh!t.

    Allow me to plainly speak if not clear to you already. I disagree with you-profoundly so. That van had no business there-period. Your interpretation of Article 24 alone is subject to serious dispute. If that's our bone of contention, then so be it.

    Thanks.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Soccer carpool routinely carry weapons?



    So now we have to not only identify the type of weapon, we need to give an accurate count as well. OK. Anything else you would like to see changed in ROE? Should we count the number of reloads carried by the combatants? The gun could be empty. How about actually spot them work the action of the gun? They could be props or drill rifles.

    I wouldn't care what you do over there at all if you spent your own money.


    Seriously... You people are not the least bit interested in the idea that what the soldier reported he saw was not what he saw. That fired saw the windshield and delighted in destroying it but not the children behind it. You would do nothing at all to improve his observational skills?
    Last edited by Roycerson; 07 Apr 10, at 00:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigross86 View Post
    Day care bus? Don't editorialize. Stick to the facts
    OK now THAT is funny


    I haven't mentioned the RPG cuz I'm not qualified to say it is or it isn't.

  9. #69
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    Be completely honest: Did you see the kids when the van showed up, or did you notice them when they were pointed out at the end of the video? I only noticed them when they were pointed out, and I was sitting in the comfort of my room, not in an Apache flying over Iraq with people who were just trying to shoot at me.

    Lemme ask you the same question I asked Hitman: Did you serve?
    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

    Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigross86 View Post
    How exactly did they defame themselves by your definition? Was it the shooting which was completely legal and fell within the boundaries of the ROE, or was it their talking on the radio that pisses you off?
    I could understand the first shooting, because one guy carried sth that could have been a weapon, the shooting of the van was completely unnecessary.

    But what realy disgusted me was the sheer enjoyment the soldiers displayed for killing helpless people.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman817 View Post
    I could understand the first shooting, because one guy carried sth that could have been a weapon, the shooting of the van was completely unnecessary.
    The soldiers did not know that the wounded person was a reporter. To them he was somebody hanging out with armed insurgents. Whoever comes to pick him up is also most probably connected to the insurgents. If he is brought back to health, what's to stop him from picking up another gun and shooting at some more helicopters? After the fact, it looks completely heinous, but at the time, it was exactly the right thing to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman817 View Post
    But what realy disgusted me was the sheer enjoyment the soldiers displayed for killing helpless people.
    That's right, because the loving Iraqis and Afghans have never ever beheaded an innocent news reporter or some other kidnapped civilian with a smile on their face and then posted it online, right?

    Once again, look at it in the context the soldiers saw it, not the one you see it in now. They were not helpless people. They were armed combatants in a combat zone not wearing any uniforms.
    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

    Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigross86 View Post
    Be completely honest: Did you see the kids when the van showed up, or did you notice them when they were pointed out at the end of the video? I only noticed them when they were pointed out, and I was sitting in the comfort of my room, not in an Apache flying over Iraq with people who were just trying to shoot at me.

    Lemme ask you the same question I asked Hitman: Did you serve?
    I didn't see the kids, I also didn't see a reason to shoot. I didn't see guns, I didn't see aggression, I saw a van that rolled up from who knows where and found itself the first responder to a serious medical situation. We DO have troops on the streets in America more and more. If I came around the corner and saw people lying bleeding everywhere I'd stop and help. This guy would kill me for it. I fear him. I don't want to pay his salary.

    Yes I did. As a weather observer in the Air Force. I hardly call it serving though. I do a lot more good building America's infrastructure in the private sector, I have no doubt my contribution to the betterment of the world comes from building things, that's how I feel I've served.

    In basic training they told us about the french embassy in Libya. How our official US story is ridiculous and of course we bombed the french on purpose cuz they wouldn't let us fly over their country. I laughed with everyone. Dead janitors were funny to me when I 'served'. I wouldn't kill my neighbors dog because he didn't want me in his yard and I'm ashamed that I laughed and I know that everyone in that room laughed. I know all my friends who've been to Iraq laugh about turning people over to be tortured by the IA and listening to the screams and watching the car battery being brought in. They laugh about rounding up every single male of military age in 2 towns and caging them indefinitely because someone put an IED in the road between the towns.

    I served enough to know that active duty soldiers don't give a damn about Iraqis innocent or not and would rather see the whole place nuked. I served enough to know this wasn't self-defense it was soldiers killing people because they could, that's what soldiers do, they like it.
    Last edited by Roycerson; 07 Apr 10, at 01:14.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roycerson View Post
    OK now THAT is funny


    I haven't mentioned the RPG cuz I'm not qualified to say it is or it isn't.
    When you see someone hiding around a corner pointing a long tube with something sticking out the end at you, it's most probably not a potato gun.

    It could be an RPG, Stinger, SA-7 or SA-14. As a general rule, it's an RPG, because that's what they have the most of, and it's the easiest of all 4 to use, something you don't really need training for, as opposed to the other 3 which are sophisticated anti-air weapons.

    The helicopter saw a weapon that was a threat to him. Using his experience in his time in Iraq, and using logic which I just showed you, he came to the conclusion that it was an RPG. Even if he called it a Stinger, SA-7 or SA-14, it doesn't make a difference. It was still a weapon, and was still pointed at him. Case closed.
    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

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  14. #74
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roycerson View Post
    I wouldn't care what you do over there at all if you spent your own money.


    Seriously... You people are not the least bit interested in the idea that what the soldier reported he saw was not what he saw. That fired saw the windshield and delighted in destroying it but not the children behind it. You would do nothing at all to improve his observational skills?
    The soldier reported exactly what he saw.

    What you're doing is splitting hair to support your distaste for US soldiers. They saw guns and conveniently reported as "AKs." You want them to identify the make and model, and the correct number of guns at the scene. If they reported wrong, then they obviously were lying and looking for a reason to kill people for the sheer joy of it.

    I hope you don't have to be in a situation where you have to make split second decisions that could result in life and death. You probably will make the wrong call and get yourself killed.

    Easy scenario: you're a cop. You heard report of a bank robber running into a nearby apartment complex. You know he's about 25 years old; wearing black t-shirt and blue jeans. He's reportedly armed with a long gun. You spot someone matching this description, acting suspiciously. He has a back back, black t-shirt, and blue jeans. More importantly, he's carrying a long gun. You make yourself less noticeable by hiding in the less well lit parts of the apartment complex. He rounds the corner, sees you, raises his gun. What do you do?
    Last edited by gunnut; 07 Apr 10, at 01:15.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roycerson View Post
    I didn't see the kids
    Let's start with that. If you didn't see it, and were in much better viewing conditions, can you accept that he also didn't see it?

    I also didn't see a reason to shoot. I didn't see guns, I didn't see aggression, I saw a van that rolled up from who knows where and found itself the first responder to a serious medical situation.
    But they're not meant to be there. Be being there they are endangering themselves and their children who they brought with them. There are trained personnel who are protected according to the Geneva Conventions, and they have very obvious insignia exactly for that purpose. By the same token, the reporter could have actually been an insurgent and these guys would bring him back to health just to shoot at some more soldiers.

    We DO have troops on the streets in America more and more. If I came around the corner and saw people lying bleeding everywhere I'd stop and help. This guy would kill me for it. I fear him. I don't want to pay his salary.
    If you are a civilian in a combat zone and you turn around a corner and see people lying bleeding all over the place, stopping and helping is the last thing you should be doing, for a couple reasons:

    1- You may or may not have the proper training, and may cause more damage than good.
    2- By helping you may cause a crowd to gather or start a scene, something that will impede the actual medical crew from reaching the area.
    3- As a civilian in a combat zone, you are unprotected if you aid an insurgent. Medics are protected, as are Chaplains, and wear very obvious signs to make sure that they don't get shot. By going to help you are putting your own life at risk. Not only that, you're unnecessarily putting your life at risk, since there are no guarantees you can do anything to help, and like I said, can cause even more harm.
    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

    Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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