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Thread: From WikiLeaks, Collateral Murder

  1. #46
    Contributor Genosaurer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roycerson View Post
    I heard them claim to ID those things but I didn't see them for myself. Why a model for the supposed assault rifle? Wasn't close enough to tell if it was a FN-FAL or Remington 870 so why claim to have positively identified an AK?
    I think you're reading way too much into something that was probably being used as a general catchall term.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigross86 View Post
    It's called Band of Brothers. Those who have been there and done that will always stand together and defend their comrades in arms. Tell me, Hitman, did you ever serve?
    No, but I'll, as every Turk does. And I would never tolerate such behaviour among my fellow soldiers.

    Oh, and by the way: Engin Ceber was beaten to death on 10 October 2008 in Metris Prison, İstanbul. Are Turkish Police allowed to act in a disgraceful manner, as long as the soldiers don't?
    I don't know anything about this incident, but if its true I'd condemn this.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genosaurer View Post
    I think you're reading way too much into something that was probably being used as a general catchall term.
    Exactly my point. AK-47 apparently equals any firearm, camera or gardening utensil.


    He said 5+ people with AKs. Where are they now? I'm sure 5 also was just a general catchall term. 1 shovel... 5 AKs..... that's really just splitting hairs isn't it. I expect more detail from the general laborers that work for me at 10 bucks an hour. Admittedly, correctly identifying what they see with their eyes is a recurring issue w/ them as well.
    Last edited by Roycerson; 07 Apr 10, at 00:09.

  4. #49
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman817 View Post
    Turkish soldiers would never conduct themselves in such a disgraceful manner, no matter what. And if they did, I wouldn't defend them unconditionally as some of you do here.
    Of course not. I'm sure they have absolutely no problem with law abiding Kurdish civilians armed with rifles and RPGs, taking a stroll in the country side where they're conducting an anti-insurgency campaign. After all, the weapons aren't pointed at them. There are no immediate threats.

    Turkish police must be very tolerant as well. You probably have thousands of armed civilians, toting automatic rifles and grenades, walking through the streets of Ankara every single day. What a civilized society you have.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by S-2 View Post
    [B]Assisting other un-uniformed combatants? Van marked? No sympathy here. Stay away from a battlezone or enter at your own risk. Price paid.
    Show me the law that requires the van to be marked, no one who got out of the van was armed and they were obviously helping a wounded man who was no threat.

    From

    UN Convention (I)
    for the Amelioration
    of the Condition of
    the Wounded and Sick
    in Armed Forces in the Field

    Article 24. Medical personnel exclusively engaged in the search for, or the collection, transport or treatment of the wounded or sick, or in the prevention of disease, staff exclusively engaged in the administration of medical units and establishments, as well as chaplains attached to the armed forces, shall be respected and protected in all circumstances.

    There is no uniform requirement, those people should have been protected.

    Oh? And what attitude wouldn't?
    Not killing everything that moves would be a good start.

    Really. Don't ask me to repeat myself. I'm certain of what I've seen and find no cause for this mock angst. Too fcukin' bad that they dragged kids into a battlezone replete with un-uniformed combatants. Too fcukin' bad that REUTERS embedded with the irhabis. Too fcukin' bad that the van was unmarked.
    Y its to fcuking bad some hot shot Apache pilots broke the f'ing law by gunning down people obviously engaged in protected activities.

    We've too many instances today in Afghanistan of irhabis taking pot-shots at our guys and putting down their weapons before walking right in front of our gunsights...usually with women and children included if they can be corraled.
    The people from the Van were tending the wounded, not trying to get away after taking pot shots. Flippant short sighted remarks are little more than feel good justification for a crime. Implying that anyone who dissagrees with you hate America is just stupid. I am as patriotic as anyone, enlisted when I was 17 and never miss a vote. I've earned my right to call bvllshit, bvllshit.

  6. #51
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roycerson View Post
    Exactly my point. AK-47 apparently equals any firearm, camera or gardening utensil.
    Would it help if we changed the rule of engagement so that our soldiers need to identify the make and model of the firearm before opening fire on insurgents?

    Would the term "AK" be OK to describe all the clones that exist in the world? Or do our soldiers need to identify each with the correct model name and number from the country of origin?
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by TTL View Post
    I think they confused the camera with a RPG.
    No, there was an RPG there, a guy has it against his body until he thinks the Apache can't see them, then you see it swing out. The first attack was legit and its too bad for the reporters. in the video 3:58

    The only problems are with the shooting of the van.
    Last edited by zraver; 07 Apr 10, at 00:25.

  8. #53

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    Hitman17 Reply

    "S-2, seriously, you need professional help against your paranoia."

    No paranoia here. I just recognize self-serving sanctimony when I see it. Those engaged in its use in this instance do so to needlessly defame American troops. That makes them my enemy.

    Like you.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Would it help if we changed the rule of engagement so that our soldiers need to identify the make and model of the firearm before opening fire on insurgents?

    Would the term "AK" be OK to describe all the clones that exist in the world? Or do our soldiers need to identify each with the correct model name and number from the country of origin?
    If he had said 1 rifle I'd have nothing to say (other than that's no crime in my book but that's not what I'm talking about here) but he didn't report what he saw. He reported what he expected to see. Is it so strange to think that's noteworthy, something to be improved upon, something that likely causes lots of deaths that oughtn't have happened thus pisses off a lot of Iraqis that didn't need to get pissed off thus causing more deaths etc.?

    Say what you see, that's what I'm saying. I pay that guy a lot of money and I think he has no business saying what he sees for a living.

  10. #55
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    Zraver:

    1949 Geneva Conventions, Chapter VII. The Distinctive Emblem

    Art. 39. Under the direction of the competent military authority, the emblem shall be displayed on the flags, armlets and on all equipment employed in the Medical Service.

    Art. 40. The personnel designated in Article 24 and in Articles 26 and 27 shall wear, affixed to the left arm, a water-resistant armlet bearing the distinctive emblem, issued and stamped by the military authority.

    Art. 41. The personnel designated in Article 25 shall wear, but only while carrying out medical duties, a white armlet bearing in its centre the distinctive sign in miniature; the armlet shall be issued and stamped by the military authority.

    Art. 42. Parties to the conflict shall take the necessary steps, in so far as military considerations permit, to make the distinctive emblems indicating medical units and establishments clearly visible to the enemy land, air or naval forces, in order to obviate the possibility of any hostile action.

    The van and the people in the van adhered to absolutely none of these articles which demand that medics go unharmed.
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  11. #56
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roycerson View Post
    If he had said 1 rifle I'd have nothing to say (other than that's no crime in my book but that's not what I'm talking about here) but he didn't report what he saw. He reported what he expected to see. Is it so strange to think that's noteworthy, something to be improved upon, something that likely causes lots of deaths that oughtn't have happened thus pisses off a lot of Iraqis that didn't need to get pissed off thus causing more deaths etc.?

    Say what you see, that's what I'm saying. I pay that guy a lot of money and I think he has no business saying what he sees for a living.
    Fair enough.

    What if the said soldier claims to have seen a rifle, but it turned out to be a shotgun?

    What if another soldier said he saw a guy carrying RPG reloads, but they turn out to be 81mm mortar rounds?
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  12. #57
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    We're at war w/ iraq?

    He wasn't an ambulance driver. He worked for Reuters. He had his kids with him. What does the rules about military medical personnel have to do with anything at all whatsoever? Did you mean to post that in a different thread?

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roycerson View Post
    If he had said 1 rifle I'd have nothing to say (other than that's no crime in my book but that's not what I'm talking about here) but he didn't report what he saw. He reported what he expected to see. Is it so strange to think that's noteworthy, something to be improved upon, something that likely causes lots of deaths that oughtn't have happened thus pisses off a lot of Iraqis that didn't need to get pissed off thus causing more deaths etc.?

    Say what you see, that's what I'm saying. I pay that guy a lot of money and I think he has no business saying what he sees for a living.
    He definitely saw one RPG and one AK-47 type rifle. That's enough to declare the whole group hostile. In an Apache flying fairly quickly over the city, with the possibility that someone is about to launch said RPG at you, if you see 2 or 3 others with something that looks like rifles, you don't have time to get a closer look before you get your shot off. Whether he actually saw 5 Ak-47 type rifles or saw one rifle and 4 fairy godmothers is irrelevant. One rifle is enough to make the whole group hostile.
    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roycerson View Post
    We're at war w/ iraq?

    He wasn't an ambulance driver. He worked for Reuters. He had his kids with him. What does the rules about military medical personnel have to do with anything at all whatsoever? Did you mean to post that in a different thread?
    Zraver posted before that according to the Geneva Convention "There is no uniform requirement, those people should have been protected." I was showing him where it says they do require special insignia

    How do you know the van driver also worked for Reuters? The fact that he wasn't an ambulance driver is what got him killed in the first place. Entering a hostile area in an unmarked vehicle is bound to cause you trouble, and bringing his kids along was just plain stupid to ice the cake
    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

    Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Fair enough.

    What if the said soldier claims to have seen a rifle, but it turned out to be a shotgun?

    What if another soldier said he saw a guy carrying RPG reloads, but they turn out to be 81mm mortar rounds?
    What if a guy saw an enemy combatant that turned out to be a soccer carpool?

    THIS guy had the number of guns WAY wrong. Didn't see ANY big expensive cameras and blew up the daycare bus.

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/05/wikileaks-us-army-iraq-attack
    "Look at that. Right through the windshield," says one of the crew. Another responds with a laugh.

    Sitting behind the windscreen were two children who were wounded.
    watch what you're doing.

    How do you know the van driver also worked for Reuters?
    Among the dead were a 22-year-old Reuters photographer, Namir Noor-Eldeen, and his driver, Saeed Chmagh, 40. Is that good enough or does he need to be a w-2 employee?
    Last edited by Roycerson; 07 Apr 10, at 00:41.

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