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Thread: From WikiLeaks, Collateral Murder

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by S-2 View Post
    Last I saw those pilots I.D.ed both RPGs and AKs among those un-uniformed combatants.
    I heard them claim to ID those things but I didn't see them for myself. Why a model for the supposed assault rifle? Wasn't close enough to tell if it was a FN-FAL or Remington 870 so why claim to have positively identified an AK?

    Someone is a little lazy about accurately identifying and relaying the information that comes to his eyeballs. Maybe if he was asked how he knows it's an AK and not it's big brother the Draganov he'd look closer and see a zoom lens and microphone. The fact that they're inventing a likely rifle model shows that they are not acting on what they are actually observing but what they expect and probably want to observe.
    Last edited by Roycerson; 06 Apr 10, at 22:11.

  2. #32
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    Oh? Can you show me? Did they recover it? What characteristics did it have that positively identifies it as an RPG? Are you sure it's not a stinger missile?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman817 View Post
    Am I missing something, did those civilians try to kill the US-Soldiers?
    3:43, you see someone holding a gun by it's grip, clearly not a camera.

    As a matter of fact, yes, you can clearly see one of them peeking around a corner at the helicopter with an RPG in his hands (4:10).

    In the IDF, if you see someone with Means and Intent, you shoot to kill. I;m fairly certain that in the US Army it's the same thing. The RPG (Means) + peeking around a corner trying to aim at the helicopter (Intent) = Shoot To Kill.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roycerson View Post
    Oh? Can you show me? Did they recover it? What characteristics did it have that positively identifies it as an RPG? Are you sure it's not a stinger missile?
    Are you serious?
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  5. #35
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    I think they confused the camera with a RPG. Yet there is a question: How can these journalists be so dumb to approach an US helo in a covered and suspicious manner like this? Either they are suicidal or standard aircrews are not as trigger happy as those particular guys and such reaction was unexpected.

    War stinks, Woe to the losers...

  6. #36

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    Roycerson Reply

    I saw weapons. Clear as day. REUTERS felt they had a good story next to weapons and un-uniformed combatants.

    Bummer for them.

    You saw the same footage as I. Unless you're willful dissembling to press an unfounded case you saw un-uniformed combatants with weapons that were engaged and then saw an unmarked van attempt to extract casualties from the scene thus rendering aid to my enemies.

    They were engaged too.

    Good.

    Stay out of a battlezone and stay away from the enemy. Hope my perspective is crystalline to those here inclined to prefer the anti-American bent of this video and its objective like you Roycerson and Hitman17.

    I've seen it and know it's propaganda. You've seen it and like the propaganda despite the facts that argue otherwise. You can only do so if pre-disposed to like the enemy, hate us or both. Nothing I say will change your mind. Nothing you say will change mine.

    That's why both of you and I are likely very much enemies too. If either of you were down there working for REUTERS and had died I wouldn't mourn your deaths one bit.

    Thanks.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
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  7. #37
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    Anti-american? I'm no bigot. I have no reason to think the actions of these individuals from their preference in breakfast cereal to their decision to shoot up a family of good Samaritans (Or "Sumerians" if you prefer) has anything at all to do with "America" or "Americans" or is an example of what I should expect from "America" or "Americans". I don't judge people based on the political condition of their birthplace.

    Looking closer I'm pretty sure I saw a single rifle with a high capacity clip but that's no crime to me. I wouldn't be in Iraq w/o a gun either. I stand behind the fact that they are not very picky with the details of their observations and were destined to kill innocent people with that sort of lack of attention to detail. If that was an RPG, where is it now?
    Last edited by Roycerson; 06 Apr 10, at 23:23.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by S-2 View Post
    I saw weapons. Clear as day. REUTERS felt they had a good story next to weapons and un-uniformed combatants.

    Bummer for them.

    You saw the same footage as I. Unless you're willful dissembling to press an unfounded case you saw un-uniformed combatants with weapons that were engaged and then saw an unmarked van attempt to extract casualties from the scene thus rendering aid to my enemies.

    They were engaged too.

    Good.

    Stay out of a battlezone and stay away from the enemy. Hope my perspective is crystalline to those here inclined to prefer the anti-American bent of this video and its objective like you Roycerson and Hitman17.

    I've seen it and know it's propaganda. You've seen it and like the propaganda despite the facts that argue otherwise. You can only do so if pre-disposed to like the enemy, hate us or both. Nothing I say will change your mind. Nothing you say will change mine.

    That's why both of you and I are likely very much enemies too. If either of you were down there working for REUTERS and had died I wouldn't mourn your deaths one bit.

    Thanks.
    Clearly you are just like the Soldiers on the Video, I hope that's not the case for the majority of the US-Soldiers.

    And for your information I wouldn't mourn your deaht either. ; )

  9. #39

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    Roycerson Reply

    "I stand behind the fact that they are not very picky with the details of their observations and were destined to kill innocent people with that sort of lack of attention to detail."

    In fact the presence of that attack helicopter and its clear communications with a nearby ground element indicates that they were there very specifically to engage hostile un-uniformed combatants. That they did. No doubt that it was at that moment a battlefield of some interest to us.

    If you choose to arm yourself and wander a battlezone inhabited with similarly clothed men carrying weapons and do so in their extremely close proximity may God's (and an American AH-64 Apache's) wrath fall on you.

    You would not be at all innocent. Nor do I characterize "innocence" as close association with those men. Don't pull your unmarked van up next to them immediately following an engagement, begin rendering aid and expect mercy.

    Those wounded are potential prisoners. Removing them from the battlefield is our prerogative and, indeed, responsibility. Ground troops were manuevering to that scene in the midst of that footage.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman817 View Post
    Clearly you are just like the Soldiers on the Video, I hope that's not the case for the majority of the US-Soldiers.

    And for your information I wouldn't mourn your deaht either. ; )
    I don't know about the US soldiers, but I'm IDF (reserves) and I agree with pretty much everything S-2 has to say about this particular topic
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman817 View Post
    Disgusting behaviour on part of the US-Soldiers, not only did they kill those civilians without any reason -since they didn't shoot at the US-soldiers- they also seem to have enjoyed the act of killing itself.
    I'm sure the Turkish army will take every precaution to avoid any unnecessary deaths of the Kurdish civilians during an insurgency.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  12. #42

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    Hitman17 Reply

    "Clearly you are just like the Soldiers on the Video..."

    I will fairly conclude that you're no different than those armed irhabists on that video either.

    "I hope that's not the case for the majority of the US-Soldiers."

    Of course you do. You might then live another day to kll American soldiers. Fortunately, these pilots knew their duty, identified hostile intent, and engaged those bastards.

    "And for your information I wouldn't mourn your deaht either. ; )"

    I don't expect my enemies to do so.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    I'm sure the Turkish army will take every precaution to avoid any unnecessary deaths of the Kurdish civilians during an insurgency.
    Turkish soldiers would never conduct themselves in such a disgraceful manner, no matter what. And if they did, I wouldn't defend them unconditionally as some of you do here.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by S-2 View Post
    "Clearly you are just like the Soldiers on the Video..."

    I will fairly conclude that you're no different than those armed irhabists on that video either.

    "I hope that's not the case for the majority of the US-Soldiers."

    Of course you do. You might then live another day to kll American soldiers. Fortunately, these pilots knew their duty, identified hostile intent, and engaged those bastards.

    "And for your information I wouldn't mourn your deaht either. ; )"

    I don't expect my enemies to do so.
    S-2, seriously, you need professional help against your paranoia.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman817 View Post
    Turkish soldiers would never conduct themselves in such a disgraceful manner, no matter what. And if they did, I wouldn't defend them unconditionally as some of you do here.
    It's called Band of Brothers. Those who have been there and done that will always stand together and defend their comrades in arms. Tell me, Hitman, did you ever serve?

    Oh, and by the way: Engin Ceber was beaten to death on 10 October 2008 in Metris Prison, İstanbul. Are Turkish Police allowed to act in a disgraceful manner, as long as the soldiers don't?
    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

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