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White supremacist Eugene Terre'Blanche is hacked to death after row with farmworkers

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  • White supremacist Eugene Terre'Blanche is hacked to death after row with farmworkers

    White supremacist Eugene Terre'Blanche is hacked to death after row with farmworkers

    Two suspects held over killing of South Africa's Nazi-inspired AWB leader as he slept in his bed
    White supremacist Eugene Terre'Blanche is hacked to death after row with farmworkers | World news | The Observer
    * David Smith, Johannesburg
    * The Observer, Sunday 4 April 2010
    * Article history

    Eugene Terreblanche

    Eugene Terre’Blanche waves to his supporters after he was released from prison in Potchefstroom in June 2004 after he had served part of a five-year sentence for the attempted murder of a black security guard. Photograph: Alexander Joe/AFP/Getty Images

    A notorious white supremacist who once threatened to wage war rather than allow black rule in South Africa was hacked to death at his farm yesterday following an argument with two employees. Eugene Terre'Blanche's mutilated body was found on his bed along with a broad-blade knife and a wooden club, police said.

    "He was hacked to death while he was taking a nap," one family friend, who did not wish to be named, told Reuters.

    Local media quoted a member of Terre'Blanche's Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging party (Afrikaner Resistance Movement, or AWB) as saying that the 69-year-old had been beaten with pipes and machetes. Police said two males, thought to be workers on the farm, have been arrested and will appear in court on Tuesday.

    Terre'Blanche, with striking blue eyes and white beard, was the voice of hardline opposition to the end of racial apartheid in the early 1990s, and the AWB was infamous for its swastika-like symbols and neo-Nazi anthems. But he had been in relative obscurity since his release in 2004 after a prison sentence for beating a black man nearly to death.

    Last year he attempted a comeback, announcing plans to rally far-right groups and to apply to the United Nations for a breakaway Afrikaner republic.

    His death comes amid heightened racial tension in South Africa, where Julius Malema, leader of the youth wing of the governing African National Congress, has caused anger by singing a struggle song with the words, "Shoot the Boer". Terre'Blanche called himself a Boer, which means farmer in Afrikaans.

    Civil rights groups say that 3,000 white farmers have been killed since the end of apartheid and accuse Malema of inciting further violence against them. Last week a high court banned Malema from repeating the lyric but he did so yesterday during a visit to Zimbabwe.

    Police in South Africa's North West province said last night that Terre'Blanche had been attacked and killed at his farm 10km outside Ventersdorp. Captain Adele Myburgh said Terre'Blanche was attacked by a man and a minor who worked for him after they allegedly had an argument about unpaid wages at around 6pm, the South African Press Association reported.

    "Mr Terre'Blanche's body was found on the bed with facial and head injuries," Myburgh said. "There was a panga [broad-blade knife] on him and knobkerrie [wooden club] next to the bed. A 21-year-old man and 15-year-old boy were arrested and charged for his murder. The two told the police that the argument ensued because they were not paid for the work they did on the farm." She added that Terre'Blanche was alone with the two workers at the time of the attack.

    The opposition Democratic Alliance expressed "outrage and concern" at Terre'Blanche's murder and cited the recent controversy triggered by Malema.

    Terre'Blanche founded the white supremacist AWB in 1970, to oppose what he regarded as the liberal policies of the then South African leader, John Vorster. His party tried terrorist tactics and threatened civil war in the run-up to South Africa's first democratic elections in 1994, won by the ANC and Nelson Mandela, who became the country's first black president.

    In 1998, Terre'Blanche accepted "political and moral responsibility" before South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission for a bombing campaign to disrupt the 1994 elections in which 21 people were killed and hundreds injured.

    Terre'Blanche's credibility as a political leader collapsed after the anti-black threats voiced by the extreme white right proved to be little more than bluster. Revelations of his extramarital affairs also undermined his reputation with religious Afrikaners. He was jailed for assaulting a black petrol attendant and the attempted murder of a black security guard, serving three years of a five-year term before his release in 2004.

    He said last year that he had revived the AWB after several years of inactivity and that it would join with like-minded forces to push for secession from South Africa. "The circumstances in the country demanded it," he told South Africa's Mail & Guardian newspaper. "The white man in South Africa is realising that his salvation lies in self-government in territories paid for by his ancestors."

    Terre'Blanche said he wanted to organise a referendum for those who wanted an independent homeland, where English would be an accepted language along with Afrikaans. "It's now about the right of a nation that wants to separate itself from a unity state filled with crime, death, murder, rape, lies and fraud."

    Political analysts say that white extremists have little support, but more than 21 members of the shadowy Boeremag (Boer Force) remain on trial for treason after being arrested in 2001 and accused of a bombing campaign aimed at overthrowing the government.

    President Jacob Zuma, who took office in May, has courted Afrikaners at a series of meetings, assuring them they have nothing to fear from his government. Last week he visited an impoverished white community near Pretoria.
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

  • #2
    High court bans public use of ‘shoot the boer’

    Johannesburg
    Stephen Grootes

    The North Gauteng High Court has ruled that ANC Youth League leader Julius Malema may not use the phrase “shoot the boer” in public.
    Judge Eberhard Berltesmann said the real pest of hate speech was the effect it would have on the person it was aimed at.
    He said the rights of the affected people had to come before the rights of the people who wanted to sing these songs.
    However he also said this was a preliminary decision, adding the Equality Court must hear the case.
    He said it was obvious the comments caused people to be worried and concern.
    Malema and the ANC are likely to be furious at this decision but it is only effective until he first day of the Equality Court hearing.
    I wonder what our old buddy Traps has to say about this...
    Reddite igitur quae sunt Caesaris Caesari et quae sunt Dei Deo
    (Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's)

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm in tears. Really. I'm having trouble controlling my grief.

      Actually I'm smirking. Sue me.
      “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
        I'm in tears. Really. I'm having trouble controlling my grief.

        Actually I'm smirking. Sue me.
        There there TH. Don't take it so hard. At least you have the consolation that he spread joy & happiness wherever he went & will be mouned by billions for his contribution to humanity.;)

        On a more serious note, I was amazed by this:

        Terre'Blanche founded the white supremacist AWB in 1970, to oppose what he regarded as the liberal policies of the then South African leader, John Vorster.
        I remember reading something by a Sth African writer who likened his nation to an insane asylum that became more & more detached from reality. The notion that anybody could see Vorster as liberal' would seem to support his contention.

        Personally I'm surprised he lasted as long as he did. Not a great way to go, but can't say I'll be all broke up about it.
        sigpic

        Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by sappersgt View Post

          I wonder what our old buddy Traps has to say about this...


          Mike hasn't posted for a while and it would be interesting to read the reactions of the Africans.

          Comment


          • #6
            Captain Adele Myburgh said Terre'Blanche was attacked by a man and a minor who worked for him after they allegedly had an argument about unpaid wages at around 6pm, the South African Press Association reported.
            Always pay your workers.
            To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by sappersgt View Post

              I wonder what our old buddy Traps has to say about this...
              Something like this, I suspect. :)

              ANC reversing ’shoot the boer’ will test the Constitution


              The African National Congress has confirmed that it will be taking legal steps to reverse the decision of the South Gauteng High Court on Thursday which granted an interdict against ANCYL leader Julius Malema singing dubula ibhunu [shoot the boer].

              ANC spokesperson Jackson Mthembu issued a statement on Friday in terms whereof the ruling party confirmed it will be approaching the courts, including the Constitutional Court, in order to challenge the High Court’s ruling. It also expressed disappointment at Judge Eberhard Bertelsmann’s “lack of consideration” for the historical context of the song.

              The matter has been referred to the Equality Court by Bertelsmann.

              Two interest groups are confronting each other on this issue: The ANC/ANCYL, who believe that the song — regardless of how inappropriate the words may be — forms part of the country’s history and culture and the white, Afrikaner community represented by Afriforum, who say the word “boer”, in the context of the song, is derogatory and refers to farmers, whites and Afrikaners in particular.

              Interestingly, certain members of the legal fraternity across racial lines have sympathy with the ANC on this issue.

              This arises out of concern for the attack on South Africans’ Constitutional right to freedom of expression rather than any love for the song itself.

              Professor Pierre de Vos, an expert on constitutional law, believes that the hate speech provisions which form the basis for granting the order may be unconstitutional in themselves.

              “One should be careful not to endorse legislation merely because it is being used in one case against one person whom one may not like very much. It is always better to look in a principled manner at legislation and to ask whether the legislation is good or bad for our democracy and whether the legislation passes constitutional muster. This is why I believe it is important to look critically at the hate-speech provision in section 10 of the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act (The Act).

              Such a critical evaluation will reveal that there are serious questions about the constitutionality of the hate-speech provision. In fact, I suspect that the provision is unconstitutional and hope that it will be challenged by someone (Julius are you there?), so that it can be declared invalid by the Constitutional Court.” (De Vos)

              The professor then sets out the basis for his assertion that the provisions may well be unconstitutional.

              Those who are following the case should click on the link and take the time to read his argument.

              Of course there are also other issues that come into play here.

              In terms of the Bill of Rights (Chapter 2 of the Constitution), equality (Section 9) may well conflict with freedom of expression, (Section 16) in respect of this issue.

              In this regard Section 9 reads as follows:

              9.1 Everyone is equal before the law and has the right to equal protection and benefit of the law.

              9.2 Equality includes the full and equal enjoyment of all rights and freedoms. To promote the achievement of equality, legislative and other measures designed to protect or advance persons, or categories of persons, disadvantaged by unfair discrimination may be taken.
              9.3 The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth.
              9.4 * No person may unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds in terms of subsection (9.3). National legislation must be enacted to prevent or prohibit unfair discrimination.
              9.5 Discrimination on one or more of the grounds listed in subsection (3) is unfair unless it is established that the discrimination is fair.
              Unlike the Act (see above) being too wide when regard is had to the Constitution — thus making the hate-speech provisions potentially unconstitutional — here we are dealing with two sections of the Constitution which appear to be in conflict with each other when it comes to dealing with the legality of the song.

              Do the rights of the farmers to protection under the law supersede those of Malema’s to freedom of expression or vice versa?

              The answer is not simply one or the other.

              In practice our courts interpret legislation in order to see where certain rights begin and end, thereby giving them boundaries. In that way people are made to understand to what degree their rights extend.

              In this case, to what extent the song may be sung, if at all, before it infringes on the Constitutional rights of others, if at all?

              It will certainly provide for fascinating argument and enrich our democracy no end if conducted in the spirit of debate and not confrontation.
              Thought Leader Michael Trapido ANC reversing 'shoot the boer' will test the Constitution
              sigpic

              Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm not at all sorry he's dead, but I don't condone his murder. last week I posted a thread about the human rights conditions in South Africa and the farmers being murdered. This morning the guy who's trying to arrange a March for Equality sent out a message:

                Another farm murder occured last night... this time it was former AWB leader Eugene Terre'blanche... he was killed with a panga (Machette) and a knobkierie (walking stick)

                Now I want to make it clear that neither I or the The Equality March supported this man... he was a racist and gave white people a bad name BUT... his death is being celebrated around SA... what does this tell you about the current condition in South Africa...

                It looks like the Kill the Boer song is finally taking it's Toll... We need to start standing united and fight this evil...
                South Africa has unfortunately become nothing but a bastion of racism, but now it's reverse: against the whites. On official forms Chinese South Africans have been reclassified as Blacks, making them eligible for Affirmative Action, and "Africans" specifically excludes white people born in South Africa.

                When Apartheid was finally abolished, the blacks claimed that they needed an Affirmative Action because the blacks, as an absolute, were uneducated and unable to perform properly in a job market. They then went and named a whole bunch of blacks (remember, the ones who are uneducated) as government ministers.

                16 years into Affirmative Action, there is already a whole new generation of kids who have had the opportunity to finish 12 years of "proper" education as demanded by the blacks when Apartheid fell. The blacks are still unable to function properly in a job environment.

                Moeletsi Mbeki, published a book entitled 'Architects of Poverty, in which he states that Affirmative Action and Black Economic Empowerment (BEE) policies have done nothing except create a select few wealthy black businessmen and hasn't helped the average South African blacks at all. The few who have made it big off BEE are those who are connected to the ANC, and every time another BEE deal goes through, it's the same people who benefit every time.

                Many newspaper articles have been written that contend that AA and BEE are failing and hinting at corruption:

                Cape Times: BEE has just shifted wealth, and not helped poor blacks
                BEE's glass slipper - Mail & Guardian Online: The smart news source
                Business Report - Home - Motlanthe warns BEE council has failed
                BEE: A man-made disaster - The Perfect Storm | Moneyweb

                There have been calls to shut down Affirmative Action and BEE, but the ANC has done nothing except state that those attacks are racist and that the people against AA and BEE have problems with black people becoming wealthy.

                Eugene Terre'blanche revived the AWB in 2008 and had rallies that drew growing crowds whom he wooed with his declaration that white South Africans are entitled to create their own country, a fight he declared he would take to the International Court at The Hague. The same exact thing that the blacks and the ANC did under Apartheid. Whether you like the guy or not, his murder is still wrong, especially when you look at the people in custody for the murder: a 21 year old and a 15 year old, both who grew up when Apartheid was abolished and blacks were given everything they needed to make it in the world.

                According to the AP:

                Terreblanche's killing comes amid growing disenchantment among blacks for whom the right to vote has not translated into jobs and better housing and education.

                Some consider themselves betrayed by leaders governing the richest country on the continent and pursuing a policy of black empowerment that has made millionaires of a tiny black elite while millions remain trapped in poverty, even as whites continue to enjoy a privileged lifestyle.

                Terreblanche recently has made statements highlighting the corruption that has ballooned under the black government.

                "Our country is being run by criminals who murder and rob ... We are being oppressed again. We will rise again," he said, referring to concentration-camp conditions that killed thousands during the Boer War fought by British colonizers.
                Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Eugene Terre'Blanche: a petty bully but a dangerous one

                  Terre'Blanche was no joke, even if he was not the threat to the transition to majority rule that he imagined himself to be
                  Eugene Terre'Blanche: a petty bully but a dangerous one | World news | The Observer
                  * Chris McGreal
                  * guardian.co.uk, Sunday 4 April 2010 12.23 BST
                  * Article history

                  Eugene Terre'Blanche

                  Eugene Terre'Blanche. Photograph: Alexander Joe/AFP/Getty Images

                  It was always tempting not to take Eugene Terre'Blanche seriously. He swaggered around in a uniform that made him look like an overgrown boy scout, threatening the race war to end all race wars in defence of apartheid, but his platoons of potbellied men didn't look like they had much fight in them.

                  I once watched his Afrikaner Resistance Movement (AWB) demonstrate "use of the horse in a revolutionary situation" – in this case rescuing a stranded white woman and her children from the heart of a black township. Terre'Blanche began by revealing a fundamental misunderstanding about townships by asking everyone to be quiet so as not to scare the horses. The crowd deemed the show a great success but Terre'Blanche was none too pleased when I asked him how the woman got to be in the township and how on earth his men got their horses there. He stomped off. Terre'Blanche did love his horse.

                  The old fascist – the AWB rode under a three-pronged, swastika-inspired cross – was good at pulling off dramatic stunts, on one occasion driving an armoured car through the front of the conference centre where Nelson Mandela and FW de Klerk were negotiating over the shape of the new South Africa.

                  Terre'Blanche was no joke, even if he was not the threat to the transition to majority rule that he imagined himself to be. The AWB terrorised whole communities, assaulting black people with impunity. And he had one thing in common with Hitler: he exercised a powerful effect with his long appeals to Afrikaner nationalism and history.

                  His organisation met its Waterloo in the black homeland of Bophuthatswana, where it foolishly imagined the army of that nominally independent land would stand against the looming ANC rule. Three AWB members were killed as the organisation was sent fleeing by the soldiers it thought would do what these white men told them. But before the AWB was driven out, its members murdered scores of black people.

                  Terre'Blanche held a press conference the day after. He blamed other Afrikaner leaders for the failure, but it was quite apparent that his men had failed their greatest test – not only militarily but in judging the willingness of black men to fight. That day Terre'Blanche turned on me demanding to know where I was from. That it was England was bad enough. The English were the original enemy. That I worked for a liberal paper was worse. My paper fell within his very broad definition of communism.

                  Bophuthatswana ended the illusion of the AWB leading a white uprising but it didn't end the violence. His men set off bombs around Johannesburg at the beginning of South Africa's first free election, killing 21.

                  For all the idealism, the man proved to be as petty and bullying as you might expect from a small-town tyrant. When he did finally go to prison, in 2001, it was not for the big crimes (he folded and confessed to those and got amnesty from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission) but for beating up a petrol station attendant and attempting to murder a security guard.

                  Terre'Blanche found himself one of the few white faces in an overwhelmingly black prison. One of dozens of cell mates during the AWB leader's first night in prison described how Terre'Blanche spent the night wide awake, handing over cigarettes. In prison he became a born-again Christian and claimed to have moderated his views on black people. But on his release he tried to relaunch the AWB. He claimed there was a popular clamour. But this time it was a joke.

                  Chris McGreal was the Guardian's Africa correspondent from 1994 to 2002
                  To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Just a few points BR

                    Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
                    South Africa has unfortunately become nothing but a bastion of racism, but now it's reverse: against the whites. On official forms Chinese South Africans have been reclassified as Blacks, making them eligible for Affirmative Action, and "Africans" specifically excludes white people born in South Africa.
                    It has been a bastion of racism for as long as it has existed. Whites still have more rights & better lives than they offered blacks under apartheid. Also remember that there was 90+ years of 'affirmative action' for whites, the current version is uber mild by comparison.

                    When Apartheid was finally abolished, the blacks claimed that they needed an Affirmative Action because the blacks, as an absolute, were uneducated and unable to perform properly in a job market. They then went and named a whole bunch of blacks (remember, the ones who are uneducated) as government ministers.
                    No, some blacks and 'coloured' (including Indians) did get educations either at home or abroad. Some were even able to get university educations (Mandela was a lawyer, remember?). You can check, but I'm guessing most of those ministers (not all of whom were black) are at least as well educated as most contributors to this forum. The problem is that the vast majority of blacks did recieved an inferior education under Apartheid.

                    16 years into Affirmative Action, there is already a whole new generation of kids who have had the opportunity to finish 12 years of "proper" education as demanded by the blacks when Apartheid fell. The blacks are still unable to function properly in a job environment.
                    What, all of them? (think about how you feel when people refer to 'the jews' in an undifferentianted fashion)

                    Moeletsi Mbeki, published a book entitled 'Architects of Poverty, in which he states that Affirmative Action and Black Economic Empowerment (BEE) policies have done nothing except create a select few wealthy black businessmen and hasn't helped the average South African blacks at all. The few who have made it big off BEE are those who are connected to the ANC, and every time another BEE deal goes through, it's the same people who benefit every time.
                    He is most likely correct. What alternative policies will help the average poor black?

                    There have been calls to shut down Affirmative Action and BEE, but the ANC has done nothing except state that those attacks are racist and that the people against AA and BEE have problems with black people becoming wealthy.
                    it is possible that both sidea are correct, though I imagine many/most of the critics are wel motivated.

                    Eugene Terre'blanche revived the AWB in 2008 and had rallies that drew growing crowds whom he wooed with his declaration that white South Africans are entitled to create their own country, a fight he declared he would take to the International Court at The Hague. The same exact thing that the blacks and the ANC did under Apartheid.
                    Those white Sth Africans who wanted an independent nation had 90 odd years in which to establish their 'own' country. They did, it was just that it was 90% black and only capable of holding together with the use & threat of violence. They thought they could maintain this indefinately. They were wrong. Even if you just want to focus on Terrblanche's people (Afrikaners) they ran the nation for over 40 years, most of it during the period of decolonization in Africa. They could have attempted to form a territorially delineated 'white' nation, stocked up on weapons & dug in. In theory it is no more ridicuous than Israel's survival, and the odds were probably better.

                    National independence is a funny thing, however - there is nothing inevitable about it. Sometimes there is a window & it closes. Sometimes you take your chance, sometimes you miss it. Thanks to an accident of colonial administration Laos is a nation despite there being more Lao in Thailand. Thanks to the fallout from a war in which it sided with a nation that wanted to keep it as a province Montenegeo is a nation, yet barely half its population are actually Montenegrin. Kurdistan will most likely never be a nation, though its people have as much right to nationhood as any of the above and more.

                    Had Afrikaners really wanted to re-establish an independent nation they might well have been able to do it. Instead they preferred the forceful rule not only of other races, but of other whites who disagreed with their vision. Having missed that chance I have serious doubts that they will get another. Wrong side of history.

                    Whether you like the guy or not, his murder is still wrong, especially when you look at the people in custody for the murder: a 21 year old and a 15 year old, both who grew up when Apartheid was abolished and blacks were given everything they needed to make it in the world.
                    Have blacks really been given everything they needed? Health, housing, infrastructure, education, land? Even if the money was spent properly, do you honestly believe that generations of inequity get reversed in less than one generation? Come on BR. I know you are smarter than that.


                    According to the AP:

                    Terreblanche's killing comes amid growing disenchantment among blacks for whom the right to vote has not translated into jobs and better housing and education.

                    Some consider themselves betrayed by leaders governing the richest country on the continent and pursuing a policy of black empowerment that has made millionaires of a tiny black elite while millions remain trapped in poverty, even as whites continue to enjoy a privileged lifestyle.

                    Terreblanche recently has made statements highlighting the corruption that has ballooned under the black government.

                    "Our country is being run by criminals who murder and rob ... We are being oppressed again. We will rise again," he said, referring to concentration-camp conditions that killed thousands during the Boer War fought by British colonize
                    This little bit from AP is disingenuous at best. Mixing in genuine concerns about corruption with those of Terreblanche misrepresents both. Terreblanche's problem isn't 'corruption', its 'black government'. You'll note that when he talked about previous 'oppression' he was referrring to events that took place over 100 years ago, not Apartheid. There are genuine concerns about the way the ANC governs, but to intertwine them with the concerns of a man who took to arms to prevent black rule is to hopelessly muddy the situation.
                    sigpic

                    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                      It has been a bastion of racism for as long as it has existed. Whites still have more rights & better lives than they offered blacks under apartheid. Also remember that there was 90+ years of 'affirmative action' for whites, the current version is uber mild by comparison.
                      The key word is ''still''.With the mention that all is going rapidly downhill.Zimbabwe style.As for ''uber mild'' part,tell that to white victims.An indirect,but palpable result of the new government inefficiency.Not to mention proeminent ANC leaders calls for mass murder.And the threats of ''uhuru'' the day Mandela buys the farm(pun intended).

                      Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                      What, all of them? (think about how you feel when people refer to 'the jews' in an undifferentianted fashion)
                      Personally I'm a bit tired of hearing this point repeated all over again.It's not about all X are Y.It's just about 50%+1 X are Y.But if you prefer to write long phrases...


                      Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                      He is most likely correct. What alternative policies will help the average poor black?
                      Educate the poor wretch before making racism a state policy in a country that supposedly denounced it's racist past.Even Communists kept parts of the old elites enough years until their people went through school.That's about 15 years.

                      Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                      Those white Sth Africans who wanted an independent nation had 90 odd years in which to establish their 'own' country. They did, it was just that it was 90% black and only capable of holding together with the use & threat of violence. They thought they could maintain this indefinately. They were wrong. Even if you just want to focus on Terrblanche's people (Afrikaners) they ran the nation for over 40 years, most of it during the period of decolonization in Africa. They could have attempted to form a territorially delineated 'white' nation, stocked up on weapons & dug in. In theory it is no more ridicuous than Israel's survival, and the odds were probably better.
                      Had Afrikaners really wanted to re-establish an independent nation they might well have been able to do it. Instead they preferred the forceful rule not only of other races, but of other whites who disagreed with their vision. Having missed that chance I have serious doubts that they will get another. Wrong side of history.
                      The only people on the wrong side of history will be those looking at the business end of a rifle.Unlike other places in Africa,the S-Africans whites are there for 400 years.It is their country as much as the black's and from many pov's even more.They are also the most numerous .I doubt they will go in the dark as silently as those from other countries.

                      Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                      Have blacks really been given everything they needed? Health, housing, infrastructure, education, land? Even if the money was spent properly, do you honestly believe that generations of inequity get reversed in less than one generation? Come on BR. I know you are smarter than that.
                      Key word ''given''.Btw,no one gave the Boers squat.They had to build it.Perhaps that's the big problem of Africa.And they were given land(former white owned farms).It took 1-2 years to make prosperous lands the newest deserts of planet Earth(all machinery was sold for pennies or as scraped iron).You do need higher education to reason that you need to work your a$$ on the farm in order to produce .Generally speaking they were given the sole decent country in sub-Saharan Africa.It won't take a generation to ruin it fully the way things are moving.And once you start going downhill,is a hellish task to stop the decline.ANC mistake no. 1 was that those educated among them did nothing to build a solid foundation.I guess they didn't really understood how a modern nation is supposed to function.They were and still are a bunch of populists and demagogues.Heck,it worked for every ex-colony black ''elite'' why not for SA?



                      Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                      This little bit from AP is disingenuous at best. Mixing in genuine concerns about corruption with those of Terreblanche misrepresents both. Terreblanche's problem isn't 'corruption', its 'black government'. You'll note that when he talked about previous 'oppression' he was referrring to events that took place over 100 years ago, not Apartheid. There are genuine concerns about the way the ANC governs, but to intertwine them with the concerns of a man who took to arms to prevent black rule is to hopelessly muddy the situation.
                      I politely ask you to show me a ''black'' government that isn't a tragic mess.So I don't give a damn who this Terreblanche(btw,is this his real name or a nom de guerre?)was or what he did(not much really,from what I read-btw,same things Mandela did in his younger days).He had a genuine and legitimate concern.

                      Now,my concern.I often read stuff like ''yeah,payback is a biatch''.The ''racist,fascist etc.. whites asked for it''.As if a wrong done decades ago is an excuse for even greater wrongs today(IIRC,the evil whites didn't collected body parts for witchcraft,among many others ''nice'' developments).My rhetorical question for all the protesters during the Apertheid is this-are you getting old,or you care only about blacks?Not really expecting an answer,but who knows...
                      Those who know don't speak
                      He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                      • #12
                        TerreBlanche et al

                        We live in interesting times in South Africa.

                        What you are reading is from my columns for a South African national.

                        I am now editor and part owner of another baby national which we launched on Thursday :

                        AWB style Terre'Blanche murder as ?declaration of war? : NewsTime

                        Hope you'll all come visit. :)

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                        • #13
                          by Bigfella
                          The problem is that the vast majority of blacks did recieved an inferior education under Apartheid.

                          Even if the money was spent properly, do you honestly believe that generations of inequity get reversed in less than one generation?
                          IMO the real unfortunate legacy of Apartheid. The lack of education and subsequent shortage of qualifed (black) people. This by itself almost guaranteed to prolong the problem. The question is what can be done about it and will politics get in the way.






                          They did, it was just that it was 90% black and only capable of holding together with the use & threat of violence.
                          More like 75% in the 80's, 15% white and 10% "colored" (compared to almost 95% of Rhodesia), demographics HAVE changed but it really doesn't matter, the point is the same. I found it interesting that most of the South Africans I talked to at the time said that Apartheid couldn't last. It was the fear of the unknown future that was the most concern. I got my ex wife and children out of South Africa when the crime rates started going through the roof and my in laws were killed.

                          They could have attempted to form a territorially delineated 'white' nation, stocked up on weapons & dug in. In theory it is no more ridiculous than Israel's survival, and the odds were probably better.

                          Had Afrikaners really wanted to re-establish an independent nation they might well have been able to do it. Instead they preferred the forceful rule not only of other races, but of other whites who disagreed with their vision.
                          I remember telling some IDF officers the Afrikaners considered themselves "God's chosen people surrounded by gentiles". I got more than a few understanding nods.

                          Do really think they could've made go of separate nation states? The Afrikaners kept trying unsuccessfully to do just that for a couple of hundred years. Hence the Orange Free State, etc. I suppose it could have been possible along the lines of Lesotho and Swaziland. I just didn't see it happening, maybe a different mindset. To me it would be like having the USA, CSA, Republic of Texas, and California occupying North America.
                          Reddite igitur quae sunt Caesaris Caesari et quae sunt Dei Deo
                          (Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's)

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                            Personally I'm a bit tired of hearing this point repeated all over again.It's not about all X are Y.It's just about 50%+1 X are Y.But if you prefer to write long phrases...
                            Personally I'm not much fussed that you are tired. I've made the same response to people who have written 'the Jews' or 'the muslims' & would do the same for people using other such undifferentiated language. The intent may not be malicious, but the form of expression has a history that is. I don't think for a moment that BR was trying to be prejudiced, but in the context of a potentially delicate discussion about race its best not to use ambiguous phraseology.

                            As for 'prefering to write a long phrase', if you are too lazy to use the one more letter required to replace 'the' with 'many' or 'most' then I'll draw my own conclusions. The fact that you have decided to make such an issue of it sort of confirms what I already thought.
                            Last edited by Bigfella; 05 Apr 10,, 02:52.
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                            Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by sappersgt View Post
                              IMO the real unfortunate legacy of Apartheid. The lack of education and subsequent shortage of qualifed (black) people. This by itself almost guaranteed to prolong the problem. The question is what can be done about it and will politics get in the way.
                              Agreed. White minority rule set up whatever followed for failure by creating such a wildly unbalanced society. The simple answer is education & opportunity - the difficulty is actually achieveing both. As for politics getting in the way, inevitably it will. Did before, will now. The real question will be - is doing 'X' poorly better than not doing it at all. Don't have any easy answers.

                              More like 75% in the 80's, 15% white and 10% "colored" (compared to almost 95% of Rhodesia), demographics HAVE changed but it really doesn't matter, the point is the same. I found it interesting that most of the South Africans I talked to at the time said that Apartheid couldn't last. It was the fear of the unknown future that was the most concern.
                              Apologies, I didn't really think - just translated 'non-white' into 'black'. I actually did know better, just got lazy. I was fascinated to read a few years back that even as it became clear this would all come to an end support for the National Party actually increased. The explanation was that the 'laager' mentality became a way of avoiding a reality that many knew was approaching at speed.

                              I got my ex wife and children out of South Africa when the crime rates started going through the roof and my in laws were killed.
                              Would most likely have done the same.

                              I remember telling some IDF officers the Afrikaners considered themselves "God's chosen people surrounded by gentiles". I got more than a few understanding nods.
                              I was actually thinking something similar. They remind me of nothing so much as the religious setters on the West Bank, but without any of the powerful friends.

                              Do really think they could've made go of separate nation states? The Afrikaners kept trying unsuccessfully to do just that for a couple of hundred years. Hence the Orange Free State, etc. I suppose it could have been possible along the lines of Lesotho and Swaziland. I just didn't see it happening, maybe a different mindset. To me it would be like having the USA, CSA, Republic of Texas, and California occupying North America.
                              I don't really know SapperS, but it doesn't seem any more ridiculous than what they DID decide to do - try to rule a nation where at least 90% of the population didn't want them in charge (I'm talking Afrikaners now, so I think my 90% probably holds good for most of the post-'48 period). Thinking theoretically: a significant number of Afrikaners including many of those governing the Union & in the military pushe to re-establish a single boer republic including bits of the old Transvaal & Free State & probably enough of Natal to give sea access; they do some 'land swaps' with blacks to ensure themselves a demographic majority; Set up their dream racial paradise, arm themselves to the teeth & leave the rest of Sth Africa in the hands of the remaining whites (perhaps majority 'english'). Sure it sounds a bit outlandish, but stranger things have happened (and some would argue did). it is certainly no more absurd (and probably more practical) than trying to establish an Afrikaner 'homeland' now.

                              I'm not really sure if trying to recreate a new version of the boer republics would have worked, but in theory the opportunity existed. In reality I think that the majority of Afrikaners actually gave the 'English' their final victory by buying into the Union of SA more or less whole. Obviously the divide between those in the cities/on the land & those in the old republics/Cape boers & those further afield meant that there was no single 'Afrikaner' perspective. But I think the truth is that the majority convinced themselves that there was no longer a need to revive the old dream of the republics because they could create that dream on a much larger scale. They were fatally wrong. I doubt that history will give them another chance.
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                              Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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