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  • #76
    Last major river obstacle was at Arnhem(and still is,depending where you're coming from).
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Mihais View Post
      Last major river obstacle was at Arnhem.
      The Rhine or the Ijssel ?
      J'ai en marre.

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      • #78
        The Rhine

        "Last major river obstacle was at Arnhem..."

        Allied plans upon seizure of the Arnhem gateway was to launch an encirclement attack on the Ruhr with 21st Army Group from the north and 1st U.S. Army from the south. This had been authorized by Eisenhower at a Versailles planning conference on Sept. 22, 1944. That was the intent and it was, of course, cancelled with Market-Garden's failure.

        Model had his own plans. Here I repeat history but I think it's instructive WRT to the forces employed and his intent. Had the allies succeeded with Market-Garden, I believe Model would have implemented a plan that was very similar to this actual offensive. Hitler remained concerned by the salient created by XXX Corps north of the Waal at Nijmegen. In the island region between Nijmegen and Arnhem sat much of his forces at the time of Market-Garden's conclusion.

        9th S.S. Panzer Division was withdrawn to Germany however II S.S. Panzer Corps retained 10th S.S. Panzer Div (Frundsburg) between the Waal and Rhine. This force was reinforced by 9th Pz Div and 116th Pz Div and occupied a north-south line just east of the Nijmegen-Arnhem highway. Their mission would be to attack westward. A new S.S. Army Corps XII S.S. Army Corps took over from 9th S.S. Pz Div (Hohenstaufen) defense of the Arnhem area north of the Rhine oriented south along the river. 15 Heer Armee was expected to attack east towards Grave (about 20 Km south of Nijmegen) along the Maas/Meuse river while II Parachute Corps (Meindl) was to attack westward out of the Reichswald between the south bank of the Waal and north bank of the Maas/Meuse towards Nijmegen and Goesbeek.

        II Parachute Corps attacked against the 82nd Airborne on 28 September and failed with heavy losses. They attempted to do so again on 2 Oct and, again, failed. II S.S. Pz Corps launched its attacks on 1 October and twice failed to cut the Arnhem-Nijmegen road. By 7 October, allied pressure at Aachen forced Model to pull what was left of 116 Pz Div from II S.S. Pz Corps and send it south. Meanwhile, British forces stabilized south of the Rhine while their attention was diverted west towards 15th Army and the Scheldt.

        And that was that...
        "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
        "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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        • #79
          Sir,I knew about the plan.I may have succumbed to my desire to launch an all or nothing cavalry,err,armored charge across N German plainWith a little hindsight,we know anything would have been deadly for Germany.From this pov the Allied generals dispute about the direction of the attack was futile(national ego's aside).

          The problem with Model's plan was that he operated mostly with paper units.IIRC the Hohenstaufen ''donated'' much of its heavy equipment before being scheduled for Germany.There were less than 100 operational tanks in the AO,including reinforcements(all available troops and equipment,which wasn't much).Also,FM Model's(and Hitler's,IIRC)hope that he will be able to counterattack delayed the destruction of the bridges.And the few Panzers had the same problem they encountered at the Normandy beachheads.They reached the OBJ(the road)unsupported,low on fuel and ammo and had to pull back.The German response was from many pov's brilliant,while the troops fought with usual skill and bravery,but it wasn't a battle they won,the Allied lost it.
          Those who know don't speak
          He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

          Comment


          • #80
            Mihais Reply

            "The German response was from many pov's brilliant,while the troops fought with usual skill and bravery,but it wasn't a battle they won,the Allied lost it."

            I presume you refer to the initial allied Market-Garden offensive here. If so I concur.

            "The problem with Model's plan was that he operated mostly with paper units.IIRC the Hohenstaufen ''donated'' much of its heavy equipment before being scheduled for Germany.There were less than 100 operational tanks in the AO,including reinforcements(all available troops and equipment,which wasn't much).Also,FM Model's(and Hitler's,IIRC)hope that he will be able to counterattack delayed the destruction of the bridges."

            I presume here that you refer to the post-Market Garden German counterattacks along the Eindhoven-Grave-Nijmegen-Arnhem corridor. This too would be correct. The units were and would remain shadows of their former pre-Normandy selves. On August 21, the combined strength of 9 Pz Div and 116 Pz Div post-Normandy was about 45 tanks (per Jentz)-about 1/8th their optimal strength. They were, in fact, in far better condition than virtually any other German divisions at that point. To what degree they'd been reconstituted in the space of about 35 days is questionable and I have no exact figures. The only "fresh" units that I can identify taking part of Market-Garden were 107 Pz Bde. comprised of 36 Panthers and 11 JgPz IV along with Tiger elements of 506th Schwere Pz Abt. All others were remnants of 9 and 10 S.S. Pz Div along with local training depot tanks mobilized in ad hoc fashion. Pz Bde. 107 was dramatically written down in the course of these battles and may have been integrated into either 9 Pz Div or 116 Pz Div for the post-Market Garden counterattacks.

            Market-Garden was an innovative and achievable plan, IMV. I can only speculate on its success had Patton been directing its operations but I have to believe that the five hours between 1900-2400 on 20 September were the last chance for XXX Corps to decisively influence events and swing the battle to the allies. The possibilities were boundless upon seizure of the bridges or, alternatively, bridgeheads over the Rhine. Supply through Antwerp would remain an issue but, nonetheless, didn't grievously impede allied operations further south against the west wall throughout that fall.
            "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
            "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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